Seiju, styling thoughts

[JonW]

Hi all,

I got this awesome Seiju from Bill Valvanis' International Bonsai. Just starting to show cork with a slightly larger than 1-inch caliper. It came with an issue of International Bonsai magazine with an article on twin trunk Chinese Elms translated by Peter Warren and edited by Bill.

I'm not huge into twin trunk trees, but I might keep the Mother-Daughter style, as we have a 5-month old and my wife decided this tree was designated to them.

I go back and forth about the front, but I think I will stick with the one Bill seemed to have chosen (the first pic he had on his page) because it has a nice back branch that might be a bit of a eye-pocket otherwise. I think the "child" / "daughter" second trunk is maybe too tall, and needs to be cut back or wired down a bit. Likewise, the first branch on the main trunk is a bit long.

The big decision is whether to leave the main trunk at the current height with the new leader that is developing in these pics, or to chop (or air layer) it down. You can see the third pic I posted below, with blue lines depicting a trifurcation. My two thoughts are:

1. Remove the right-hand side (as the bottom right branch is parallel) and shorted the "child/daughter" trunk, leaving the middle/main trunk and left branch over the top of the "child/daughter" trunk. Or...
2. Remove the central trunk and wire the branch on the right upward as the new leader, which gives more tapper and movement. However the tree is already pretty wide, so I'd also shorten the bottom right branch and the "child-daughter" trunk.

 

[Shibui]

Both trunks have long areas with little taper - marked in red here. That is quite typical of fast grown commercial pre-bonsai. You have the option of ignoring the lack of taper and using what's there or making some chops and regrow parts to rectify.


The blue marks are where I would consider chopping to improve taper. There's a really great spot on the smaller trunk that will immediately give taper and a nice change of direction but not quite as obvious on the main trunk or on the right branch so have a careful look to identify suitable side branches that could be wired into position to take over and grow a new apex/branch.

Not sure about your plan to chop to the right branch and wire that up. It will certainly give better taper but unless you can twist it or get new buds all the branches will then be on one side of the new trunk.

There are likely to be many other options depending how long you are prepared to spend regrowing after a chop.

 

[JonW]

Both trunks have long areas with little taper - marked in red here. That is quite typical of fast grown commercial pre-bonsai. You have the option of ignoring the lack of taper and using what's there or making some chops and regrow parts to rectify.

View attachment 332913
The blue marks are where I would consider chopping to improve taper. There's a really great spot on the smaller trunk that will immediately give taper and a nice change of direction but not quite as obvious on the main trunk or on the right branch so have a careful look to identify suitable side branches that could be wired into position to take over and grow a new apex/branch.

Not sure about your plan to chop to the right branch and wire that up. It will certainly give better taper but unless you can twist it or get new buds all the branches will then be on one side of the new trunk.

There are likely to be many other options depending how long you are prepared to spend regrowing after a chop.

Thanks - this is basically what I'm considering, although I wasn't thinking about cutting the secondary trunk as low as you suggested. While I agree it would give more taper and movement, it sort of goes back in toward the main trunk and forward toward the front/viewer. I might be able to wire it, or find a middle ground: leave a bit more of the secondary trunk, but still shorted it significantly.

As far as chopping the top at the bar branch, I just need to decide whether to make the branch on the left or right the new apex. I'm leaning toward the left so the movement of the main tree is toward/over the secondary tree, which seems typical and natural for a twin trunk. I would need to develop a branch on that side though too.

 

[sorce]

If you will Airlayer the large trunk, perhaps the best 2 trees for your composition will be the layered one and the small one.

I think the only part that doesn't fit into a dual design is the first part of the big trunk, it also would make a good tree on it own. You maybe? You just gotta stay in the "at work" pot! Lol! The, "buying jarred baby food" pot. The, "out to pharmacy at 3AM to get medicine", pot.

Sorce

 

[Shibui]

Thanks - this is basically what I'm considering, although I wasn't thinking about cutting the secondary trunk as low as you suggested. While I agree it would give more taper and movement, it sort of goes back in toward the main trunk and forward toward the front/viewer.

I also considered the small trunk growing in toward the main trunk for a while before posting that option. To me that is the lesser of 2 evils here, taper being the other. I obviously can't feel how stiff the trunk is to decide if it can be wired and bent but a small bend should make a big difference to those angles and if it is possible to add some twist at the same time you could and up with very good flow there.
If the small trunk can't be moved I would consider a right side shoot for the initial extension of the main trunk but then soon after move it back to the left toward the smaller trunk. I can actually see a small shoot at the front of the trunk, just below your blue lines. Just from what I can see that would be my choice for the new leader - initially slightly to the front and right then back to the left soon after. I think that would echo and compliment the movement of the smaller trunk really well.

Whatever you do with this tree you should be able to get a good result so enjoy the project.

 

[Sno]

For me it needs to grow a couple of years or more . This is one of mine that I got at a similar stage to yours 5 or so years ago . its in a garden sieve at the moment . I am going to airlayer the top of the straight trunk off this year .
You can still have fun with yours while you are waiting for it to girth up by taking cuttings off it
Here are a few ‘off spring ‘ that I have taken off this tree .

An airlayer taken off the side trunk

Cuttings strike really easy I’ve probably got 30 or so other trees growing on from this tree . Seiju can get inverse taper and bulges if you let too many branches grow from the same spot .

 

[JonW]

For me it needs to grow a couple of years or more . This is one of mine that I got at a similar stage to yours 5 or so years ago . View attachment 333076 its in a garden sieve at the moment . I am going to airlayer the top of the straight trunk off this year .
You can still have fun with yours while you are waiting for it to girth up by taking cuttings off it
Here are a few ‘off spring ‘ that I have taken off this tree .View attachment 333080View attachment 333081

An airlayer taken off the side trunk View attachment 333082

Cuttings strike really easy I’ve probably got 30 or so other trees growing on from this tree . Seiju can get inverse taper and bulges if you let too many branches grow from the same spot .

Your tree looks great. I figured the same - it will be a few years before I get the girth and cork I want, but its a good starter.

 

[JonW]

I also considered the small trunk growing in toward the main trunk for a while before posting that option. To me that is the lesser of 2 evils here, taper being the other. I obviously can't feel how stiff the trunk is to decide if it can be wired and bent but a small bend should make a big difference to those angles and if it is possible to add some twist at the same time you could and up with very good flow there.
If the small trunk can't be moved I would consider a right side shoot for the initial extension of the main trunk but then soon after move it back to the left toward the smaller trunk. I can actually see a small shoot at the front of the trunk, just below your blue lines. Just from what I can see that would be my choice for the new leader - initially slightly to the front and right then back to the left soon after. I think that would echo and compliment the movement of the smaller trunk really well.

Whatever you do with this tree you should be able to get a good result so enjoy the project.

I think the smaller trunk could be wired. My biggest hesitancy is making the curve look natural via wiring, but I agree it would benefit the taper.

As far as the larger trunk, it sounds like there are 3 options IF I chop it:

1. Remove the middle of the trifurcation I marked in blue and use the branch on the left as a new leader, which continues the direction over the secondary trunk
2. Remove the middle of the trifurcation I marked in blue and use the branch on the right as the new leader, then you have an alternating branch on the left, movement back toward the base, which can eventually come back toward the left (over the secondary trunk).
3. Cut even lower, such as just above the branch coming out of the front of the tree (which is also above the back branch, which is nice) and use that as the new leader with initial movement to the right and then eventually back toward the left. This front branch is less established, but as a new apex, it should grow quickly. This option would probably give the most movement and taper as it is lower with the host of sacrificing some height (don't want the main trunk shorter than the secondary trunk).

Thanks - all good options. I think I need to decide how low I can cut the secondary trunk before deciding about the main trunk.

 

[Shibui]

Always seems to be many options in bonsai so not surprising you have choices. The real skill is in making the decision. If it makes any difference I have learned that nay decision is better than none. None are 'right'. Each decision leads to a slightly different outcome but rarely to 'wrong'
Take some time so you are comfortable with the decision then act without regret because the outcome will then be the right one.

 

[JonW]

Always seems to be many options in bonsai so not surprising you have choices. The real skill is in making the decision. If it makes any difference I have learned that nay decision is better than none. None are 'right'. Each decision leads to a slightly different outcome but rarely to 'wrong'
Take some time so you are comfortable with the decision then act without regret because the outcome will then be the right one.

I agree, better to make a decision before next season. Otherwise, I'll chop it in a few years when I could have spent that time developing the next trunk line. I guess I have three times to act on that choice. Fall, spring or midsummer.