Semi-cascade palmatum

Velodog2

Chumono
Messages
950
Reaction score
2,065
Location
Central Maryland
Hello all. This is my first post in Bonsai Nut and I decided I would share a Japanese maple I've been working on for around 8 years or so that is cutting grown and appears to be kiyohime or similar. I've spent most of the time developing the cascading branch while I let a couple of sacrifice branches thicken the base before layering them off a couple years ago. I had intended to remove the topmost branch but have now decided to try to develop it as the apex, although it is relatively weak and is some years behind the rest off the tree. We shall see how my patience holds. The second topmost branch had gotten too long and I have partially cut it back this fall and am waiting to see how well it buds back before doing what needs to be done with the rest of it. There is also a "plan b" apex branch there that I will probably lose soon if the other development goes well.

There is obviously still a long ways to go to have a good bonsai here but I think I have developed a fairly decent base to work with. Any comments or suggestions are welcome. IMG_4119.JPG
 

JudyB

Queen of the Nuts
Messages
13,751
Reaction score
23,250
Location
South East of Cols. OH
USDA Zone
6a
Welcome, and thanks for sharing your work with us. If you put your location in your profile, that's always helpful.
:)
 

Velodog2

Chumono
Messages
950
Reaction score
2,065
Location
Central Maryland
Thanks for the likes.

I did some fairly crude virts of the tree pruned and then grown out a couple of ways. The question is whether to keep the planned apex. I think yes. Besides filling in more to the right it also gives the tree much more depth as the second branch is angled forward quite a bit, which is hard to see in the 2d pics. Using the second branch as apex could work as it would reinforce the 'story' of why the tree was a cascade to begin with - say from growing under an obstruction - by having all the growth toward the left and front. But I think the fuller tree with the current apex would look better, although maybe with a little less height than in the virt. We'll see.

The tree pruned
IMG_1416.JPG

With full apex.
IMG_1417.JPG

With second branch as apex.
IMG_1418.JPG
 

0soyoung

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
7,496
Reaction score
12,832
Location
Anacortes, WA (AHS heat zone 1)
USDA Zone
8b
With full apex.
This one.

With second branch as apex
If it were a variety like arakawa or there was some aspect of the trunk that is the feature of the tree (which I don't see). In other words, I think this option features the trunk.
 

Velodog2

Chumono
Messages
950
Reaction score
2,065
Location
Central Maryland
Thanks, your comment makes sense. However I took a long look at this puzzle last night and decided for a while I would delete this thread because this tree just isn't sorted enough to show anyone. But I'll lay out my concerns and see if anyone wants to try to help.

Problems since day 1 include me forgetting how most semicascades work and trying to grow the cascading branch as the trunk, and branches that are too thick, poorly oriented, and unbendable. There have already been a lot of decisions made and branches removed since then, but I have not yet found the 'right' answer to the design.

The biggest problem is how to make an apex that is compatible with the cascade. The 'second' branch was my original choice but it is thick, angular, and juts toward the front, plus is quite a ways from the base as was pointed out here. So I decided to work on the 'first' branch option. But that was weak and very undeveloped after already having had to cut most of it back due to incompatibility. It seems to be growing ok now, it's just a long ways away from being able to play the role as the 'trunk' of the tree. And then last night I decided that regardless of which I use, I almost certainly can't have both. Even in the virts they fight for dominance because the second is and will probably always be thicker than the first, and the angularity of the second is not attractive with the rest of the tree. Another possibility however could be reducing the second branch to just the lower elements. A partial fix maybe.

If I just keep the first that opens a huge gap that will have to be filled by a lot of growth, setting back the timeline many years. But I'm looking for the right answer not the quick one.

Other problems include the third branch(es) - plural because it's actually a bar branch, and looks bad. But the back part (erased in the virts) is now the only thing providing depth, and the front part I find attractive and would like to keep, I think. Again I can't have both. So I'm considering approach grafting another back branch further up on an old scar. More development.

Alright enough. I probably need in person advice from a very experienced artist, but if anyone can offer advice here it is appreciated. If not I'll probably delete the thread and take this away from public view for now.
 
Last edited:

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,908
Reaction score
45,579
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
Is that base for real?
Nice.

Let me get this out of the way....

Welcome to Crazy!

Ok....

1. Deleted? Never! (evil laugh)
This is a good thing!

2. No this is never going to work...
The whole numbering this thing....
I'll be at like 4,678 and nothing will make sense.

So...

When I first looked at this tree...
I first started thinking about a word for feminine And Masculine...
Like Femanin. Or Mascaraline.

This is like the T in LGBT for bonsai.

And it works.

The whole thing hinges off the base.
The masculine part.
Which abruptly ends and flows into a thing even the most wary dude would get tricked into at least storing in a spank bank.

It works, and well, very well as a semi because of this.

It has the strength to hold the beauty on the cliff.

I guess I have to keep going with the theme.....

Because those apexes...(my virt skills don't pass a third grade drawing level, but they serve a purpose, so I understand it's only a representation. But that is why I like really shitty ones, that leave everything to the imagination, or "perfect" ones. In between ones like this beg too many questions, like, will there really be NO taper in the apex??)

Anyway....

Those Virt apexi ......

Read like an Adams Apple bulging out of your otherwise girlish neck.
Or....really Dude-like earrings.

Eeeewwww....

I think it all rests in here....aviary-image-1480607072204.jpeg

Sticks and Scalenes.
Peep the thread.
http://www.bonsainut.com/posts/406445/
From the beginning sorry.

I think you are in a state with this tree....
Where you are simply over thinking it.
(with all respect, because those thoughts have gotten you to this excellent place)

Are you familiar with Bjorn's Bonsai Art of Japan series?

There is an episode on maples where they are simply maintaining, cutting back to "finer branching".

After you get those top 2 branches back as far as possible, all you have to do is start applying this, cutting back to finer branching. Wire the forks to go where there are none, and let the tree build itself!

Seems you have all the grunt work done...
Excellently at that.

And it's time to relax and make it pretty!

I really like this thing.

Sorce
 

TomB

Omono
Messages
1,139
Reaction score
6,843
Location
S.E. UK
The biggest problem is how to make an apex that is compatible with the cascade.
Maybe that's your issue. Does it have to be a cascade? You may want one in your collection, but is that what this tree lends itself to? Is the trunk line (up then down) right for that style?
As you're playing with virtuals, try a version of picture 2 with everything to the left of the second branch removed. Then a version with everything to the left of the first branch gone.
Then a version of the picture 3 with everything to the left of the apex removed.
Fairly drastic way of re-thinking a tree you've put a lot of effort into, so you probably won't like those ideas.
But in these pictures at least, I can see a nice delicate shohin with good trunk movement and taper in there.
 

PeaceLoveBonsai

Chumono
Messages
889
Reaction score
2,979
Location
Franklin, TN
USDA Zone
7a
Maybe that's your issue. Does it have to be a cascade? You may want one in your collection, but is that what this tree lends itself to? Is the trunk line (up then down) right for that style?
As you're playing with virtuals, try a version of picture 2 with everything to the left of the second branch removed. Then a version with everything to the left of the first branch gone.
Then a version of the picture 3 with everything to the left of the apex removed.
Fairly drastic way of re-thinking a tree you've put a lot of effort into, so you probably won't like those ideas.
But in these pictures at least, I can see a nice delicate shohin with good trunk movement and taper in there.


If the tree is a kiyohime, and I believe it is, then it does lend itself very well to semi-cascade. I believe it was @markyscott who posted this video on another thread. It's great and I thought I would re-share.

 

Velodog2

Chumono
Messages
950
Reaction score
2,065
Location
Central Maryland
Wow thanks for all the thoughtful replies! And more thanks for the compliments. After 8 or so years of being patient the tree started to look good with leaves this year (sorry wing it no pics) but when they dropped and I realized how many serious flaws it still had I lost that patience a bit and wanted to just fix it.

I agree with most everything Sorce says, although I've never looked at my trees in sexual terms, until now that is ... thanks for that. And it's trans. Oh well. I still love it. But I agree it's the incompatibility between the elements/branches that's a problem. Sorry for those virt grow outs - they were kinda rushed just to get an idea and I don't really like any - so no more. But when I did the first virtual pruning I saw that same perfect cascade triangle you show and said "oh yeah!". Then frustration as I realized it was partly made with nasty branches. So back to building it slowly. I think the first branch can be made to work, I hope, and I want to keep whatever apex it makes low unlike the virts. I really think that second one has to go somehow though. No need to make that decision yet. Keep growing it. And probably try an approach graft to get another back branch, maybe using one of the layered progeny as a donor.

Thanks TomB for thinking outside the box for me as I bought this to cascade and never considered it any other way. Your point is valid about it showing shohin potential but I think that would be throwing away its greater cascade potential. Still, it has years to go and may end up in surprising place.

The base is the result of leaving three sacrifice branches (trunks really) for at least 5 years and then taking another year to layer them off. The taper is more abrupt than I'd like. Maybe it will soften with time and growth. And the lowest cut did not heal. I just realized this fall that it is rotting and the lower trunk will be hollow. It actually will look great but is on the side so doesn't matter.

I also think it is kiyohime - I got it from the Meehan's but can't remember if they said - as the leaves are tiny and purple edged and the growth is slow, but the branches seem reasonably flexy so it may not be.

And last, one more pic of it cut back even further without that second branch. Still not bad, especially if a back branch is added near the top. Although the little branch on the left of the first main branch is really not attached there, there is actually another small shoot that is hidden in the photo that I can develop in the same way. Someday this will have graceful mascaraline layers of cascading branches and foliage on it ... if I have my way.
IMG_4137.JPG
 

JudyB

Queen of the Nuts
Messages
13,751
Reaction score
23,250
Location
South East of Cols. OH
USDA Zone
6a
I think that your eye is good. Grafting may be the answer to many of your perceived problems. It is nice to see someone so thoughtful about your development, as clearly you are.
Personally, I like the virt of the full apex, if you can achieve that. It feels more natural to me.
 

Velodog2

Chumono
Messages
950
Reaction score
2,065
Location
Central Maryland
Thank you Judy. Yes at least one graft attempt will be needed and we will see how that goes. I got a little anxious to progress with this tree when I finally started to see a nice profile over summer before I pruned it back some, but when I accept that there is a lot that can't really be used I realize it has a very long way to go yet. So it really is hard to tell how any apex I develop will turn out. But that's the fun - seeing what the tree will give to work with!
 

Velodog2

Chumono
Messages
950
Reaction score
2,065
Location
Central Maryland
And ... I have a plan. It's a very good plan ...

Actually I think it may at this moment be the correct solution to the puzzle, but I have plenty of modesty so I'll add that I could be wrong. I've been wrong before.

We'll know better in about a year.
 

Potawatomi13

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,168
Reaction score
4,403
Location
Eugene, OR
USDA Zone
8
Last pic without second branch looks good. Can use branch from apex to fill in that area. Tree really does not look bad at all so far and idea for cascade is excellent. Might one suggest growing in bigger pot to get some trunk size. Speaking of trunk this is good one especially considering was from cutting. Where is need to graft? Growing into slightly bigger tree and time will solve imagined problem of shortage of branches. Branches can be broken to bend and will also add interesting movement and scars when healed. Also seeking "triangle" shape has some flexibility. Triangle can have bulgy sides instead of straight. Unless pruning hedge vegetation/trees generally are not in straight lines;). Some good illustrations of this in Bonsai Techniques(Naka).
 

Velodog2

Chumono
Messages
950
Reaction score
2,065
Location
Central Maryland
Thank you for the suggestions Potawatomi. The only place that needs a graft is a back branch coming off the top of the cascading branch.

Here is the tree today after beginning to implement my plan. As much as I try to convince myself that the first branch needs to be the apex I just can't make it work in my mind. The flow of the second branch is much better so I've tried to find a way around the problems it presents.

IMG_0002.JPG

Using a brace (a stick of hard maple appropriately) I have been able to rotate and bend the second branch back and up somewhat. I intend to continue the process thru the summer until it makes a convincing trunk line that does not jut forward too much. The effect can be enhanced by changing the planting angle slightly to rotate the apex back more as well. I think you can already see the potential line now. Then the rightward branch coming off that at a good angle possibly becomes the second branch proper after the cascading branch. And a potential second leftward branch is in place also as well as front and back branches if no better buds show up. The attractive triangular profile you could see in the first virtual pruning is retained and accentuated. The current first branch again becomes an emergency backup apex and sacrifice/future airlayer to further thicken the trunk or more exactly to improve the rather abrupt taper.

The design is a little bit unconventional and I can't say I have an exact vision of where it will end up yet, and I'm also sure the tree will have further things to say about that, but I believe it is the right direction.

And dig the real wood-look paneling in my basement as a bonus.
 

Velodog2

Chumono
Messages
950
Reaction score
2,065
Location
Central Maryland
It has progressed ok this year. Here it is without modification after leaf drop.

13C641A6-B8B6-40D2-A748-84AE08838F91.jpeg

Growth was typical this year with only one flush in the spring. It responded ok to being pruned back and I have branches or at least buds where it was cut. The styling is better realized now and I think my plan will work. Again, the first upright branch will be layered off after I use it for a couple of approach grafts. The next branch being pulled upward by the brace is the new “trunk” making it a slant style with cascading first branch. The trunk needs a branch or two on the right side yet. I’ll see if I can get something to pop there next year and if not then that will have to be another graft.

I’ll do a little wiring to adjust branch angles before it goes into frost-free storage later on. I’ll get another pic then and edit out the first branch to show the styling better. Here is the first pic marked up to show the trunk line and main branch structure so far. Below that is a pic of the cavity left after the cut from first layer I did failed to heal properly.

544A815F-CA63-4D34-A879-D337F27462D5.jpeg
8C367BC6-528F-44C2-8EB4-737560F64BBE.jpeg
 
Top Bottom