Serissa slowly dying?!?!?!? HELP!!!

[Seattle Bonsai Newb]

Have Variegated Serissa purchased from local Bonsai nursery in South Seattle.

Symptoms (see photos):
- Brown leaf tips (plant's way of shedding leaves?).
- New leaves deformed/wrinkled and small.
- Stems aren't lengthening/growing.
- Older/larger leaves dropping and being replaced by smaller/deformed/weaker leaves.
- Seems like plant is slowly dying even though there is plenty of new/weak growth.

Serissa nursery conditions:
- Near-full shade outside, plants on lower shelves get almost no light.
- Daily watering
- High humidity > 80%
- Serissas love this and grow like weeds there.
- Staff tell customers to "Water daily!!!", likely required because of their potting media.

What I've done:
- Plant located indoors away from window but under grow light.
- Check soil moisture daily, end up watering about every 2-3 days
- Light fertilizer (miracle grow) about every 10 days after watering.
- Sprayed for bugs.
- Added humidifiers, humidity around 60%-80%, mostly near 70%.
- Reluctant to put outside as plant was raised in shady environment, might get too much light.

Anybody have any ideas on what's causing and how to correct:
- Brown leaf tips
- Small deformed leaves
- Stems not growing.

How to get this plant to grow more vigorously?

Thanks in advance for your response.

 

[SFDrake]

Those subtropical shrubs like full sun. I would suggest getting that outside until the temperature drops below 55° at night, and then under a quality plant light to overwinter.

 

[rockm]

Tree needs to be outside until frost. If you’re concerned about too much sun out it in the shade. It’s unlikely it will get too much sun in Seattle this time of year.

 

[Attmos]

Are you feeding it? The tiny, deformed, wrinkled leaves sounds like fertilizer burn...

 

[Seattle Bonsai Newb]

Many thanks for your advice. Read/scanned through the Bonsai Nut for posts relating to serissa for the last 7 years before posting above and found little/nothing pertaining to the particular symptoms. Had planned to try tree outside but will not be able to control humidity and will ultimately need to bring the tree back inside for cold weather, a relatively higher-risk maneuver. Before doing that, plan was to seek help from message boards, thanks again for your posts.

Hoped this post might sus-out specific root causes, experiences or solutions that pertain directly to issues above (I can't be the 1st person to have this problem), as there seems to be a specific knowledge gap in this area.

At risk of gazing the proverbial horse in the mouth...

Does anyone have direct experience/knowledge with specific symptoms noted above? Additional advice from members in the northern latitudes would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

 

[Seattle Bonsai Newb]

​

Are you feeding it? The tiny, deformed, wrinkled leaves sounds like fertilizer burn... too much fertilizer in the water. Happened to me a few times.

Thanks for your post! A collection of small puzzle pieces may be needed to resolve the situation.
Started light fertilizer (miracle grow) after tree had set many of the small/deformed leaves. Tree's reaction seemed to just set MORE small/deformed leaves. Will plan to hold off on the fertilizer a few weeks to see tree's reaction.

Thanks again for sharing your experience.

 

[Nera]

Mine was the very first bonsai I received, and I did end up killing it. However, Serissa are very temperamental trees, not something I would personally re-purchase. Hoping you come right with yours!

 

[rockm]

Many thanks for your advice. Read/scanned through the Bonsai Nut for posts relating to serissa for the last 7 years before posting above and found little/nothing pertaining to the particular symptoms. Had planned to try tree outside but will not be able to control humidity and will ultimately need to bring the tree back inside for cold weather, a relatively higher-risk maneuver. Before doing that, plan was to seek help from message boards, thanks again for your posts.

Hoped this post might sus-out specific root causes, experiences or solutions that pertain directly to issues above (I can't be the 1st person to have this problem), as there seems to be a specific knowledge gap in this area.

At risk of gazing the proverbial horse in the mouth...

Does anyone have direct experience/knowledge with specific symptoms noted above? Additional advice from members in the northern latitudes would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

For crying out loud you don’t need to “control” anything of it’s outside. It will be fine. It can even withstand a bit of frost (keep searching on Serissa it will come up)

There is no “high risk” move putting it outside and bringing it in for the winter. Keeping it inside because of unsubstantiated and erroneous understanding are much higher risks for the tree than increased sunlight and substantial in more humidity

The root of your problems are that the tree is inside.
Sorry but c’mon.

 

[Seattle Bonsai Newb]

Mine was the very first bonsai I received, and I did end up killing it. However, Serissa are very temperamental trees, not something I would personally re-purchase. Hoping you come right with yours!

Thanks for your kind words. This is my 2nd Serissa, the first was a gift from my sons, something I would not have purchased, but am now emotionally invested. If this message board can point to specific symptoms and specific remedies we'll all be better off.

 

[Seattle Bonsai Newb]

For crying out loud you don’t need to “control” anything of it’s outside. It will be fine. It can even withstand a bit of frost (keep searching on Serissa it will come up)

There is no “high risk” move putting it outside and bringing it in for the winter. Keeping it inside because of unsubstantiated and erroneous understanding are much higher risks for the tree than increased sunlight and substantial in more humidity

The root of your problems are that the tree is inside.
Sorry but c’mon.

Rockm, sir, your confidence in compelling, thanks again. Not trying to be difficult but... virtually every thread on the board says not to move Serissas. Was hoping to get some statement like "The tree was doing A, so I did B and it worked or didn't work".
Asking for all: Have you had experience with the specific symptoms? What tells you that the small/deformed leaves will be remedied by moving the tree outside? Wouldn't a small deformed leaf suggest a parasitic infestation? Also, you appear to be in Virginia where weather profile may be different enough to warrant different methodology. Please, share your knowledge along with your advice.
BTW I'm a retired aerospace engineer, spent the majority of my long career convincing FAA to approve things, mostly that meant designing and doing tests to show I was right, sometimes the tests failed and I was wrong, but I got to learn something valuable and have some fun. Also learned that to solve a problem it's essential to ask (sometimes forcefully/repeatedly) for help. FAA wouldn't do squat (except mostly laugh), if anyone tried to approve anything based on advice. Anyway, your advice is kindly and respectfully noted, but [all] would like to see the data points.
Kindest Regards,

 

[darzuo]

I would heed the advice of others here and move it outside. It's important to remember that outdoors in a shaded spot is still a lot more energy from the sun compared to anywhere inside a house. You're asking for people with experience with the specific symptoms, but poor / deformed growth and shedding leaves aren't symptoms that are diagnostic of anything. It could be overwatering, underwatering, systemic disease, fungal issues, anything really. But we do know it's being kept indoors which is usually a problem and will usually cause poor growth which is why people are suggesting to move it outside. It's the most likely cause, and the first step to take. Move it outdoors and leave it there unless night temperatures start getting consistently below 50f. If you're concerned about scorching, put it somewhere where it only gets morning or late afternoon sun and slowly transition it.

 

[Attmos]

​

Thanks for your post! A collection of small puzzle pieces may be needed to resolve the situation.
Started light fertilizer (miracle grow) after tree had set many of the small/deformed leaves. Tree's reaction seemed to just set MORE small/deformed leaves. Will plan to hold off on the fertilizer a few weeks to see tree's reaction.

Thanks again for sharing your experience.

My pleasure, but really... the people telling you that it should be outside are saying it for a reason. It will probly do your plant a lot of good to get it out under the sun.
I'm really not experienced enough yet to be giving advice or diagnosing growth issues. My first comment was, more or less, me thinking out loud. sorry lol

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

If this message board can point to specific symptoms and specific remedies we'll all be better off.

The plant is indoors, under lights. Since it came from a way better lit condition, it will probably have some issues photosynthesizing.

The tips are browning because the evaporation rate is low from the high humidity. A plant needs to lose excess of water through moving air, otherwise the tips where the evaporation rate is the highest and the temperature is the lowest, will collect water and fungal spores. No air movement means fungal spores get time to grow and hurt your plant. It also means that this is the spot where salts will accumulate, as they are drawn to water.

The poor growth can be a result of a lack of light or a poor balance of nutrients, probably both. Add poor evaporation rates to it, and issues photosynthesizing, and high humidity so the stomata never close and the plant never reaches a day-night equilibrium, and you're creating a perfect place for poor health.

Add to that the fact that the soil and roots have trouble breathing, evaporating and drying in a tray and a 70% humidity, and they'll also be likely to slowly get worse.
The watering tray is white from limescale, probably raises the soil pH as well if the water hits the pot bottom, adding to the issue. Plants require a not very specific pH to take up nutrients, but if it's very off then it stops taking in anything but water.

From a laboratory engineer to an aerospace engineer: If all systems are failing, the time for back and forth discussion was last month. Sometimes you just got to try something and see if it works. You've tried this, it's not working great.
Tell your boys that you might want to invite them to buy a new plant, and that you're going to go out on a limb by doing what some people online thought was best. They'll understand. Get some dried flowers, if this plant dies, glue the dried flowers to the dried trunk and you'll still have a nice memorable art piece for in the house and a story of how these people from the internet ruined that plant for you.
That is, in the worst case..
In the best case you figure out what works and you'll enjoy this plant for decades to come.

 

[darzuo]

Rockm, sir, your confidence in compelling, thanks again. Not trying to be difficult but... virtually every thread on the board says not to move Serissas. Was hoping to get some statement like "The tree was doing A, so I did B and it worked or didn't work".
Asking for all: Have you had experience with the specific symptoms? What tells you that the small/deformed leaves will be remedied by moving the tree outside? Wouldn't a small deformed leaf suggest a parasitic infestation? Also, you appear to be in Virginia where weather profile may be different enough to warrant different methodology. Please, share your knowledge along with your advice.
BTW I'm a retired aerospace engineer, spent the majority of my long career convincing FAA to approve things, mostly that meant designing and doing tests to show I was right, sometimes the tests failed and I was wrong, but I got to learn something valuable and have some fun. Also learned that to solve a problem it's essential to ask (sometimes forcefully/repeatedly) for help. FAA wouldn't do squat (except mostly laugh), if anyone tried to approve anything based on advice. Anyway, your advice is kindly and respectfully noted, but [all] would like to see the data points.
Kindest Regards,

If you want more of a logical approach, you have to imagine how many times the tree has been moved before reaching your home. It was purchased and moved from the nursery you got it at. It's probable that the nursery isn't propagating them so they got it from somewhere where it had to be shipped (probably in the dark in a bumpy vehicle for a couple days). Moving the plant isn't going to cause that many issues, and certainly not if you're just moving it from a windowsill to a yard. We want to give the tree the best environments for it to grow. We can't give it it's natural environment, because it isn't from our climate, but outdoors in seattle (or much anywhere in the world) is better than in a house that doesn't have the perfect lighting or circulation for them. So the best we can do it leave it outside, let it grow strong during the warmer months, only bringing it indoors if it absolutely cannot tolerate our winters.

The data and experience that you're asking for is the combined hundreds of years that people in this forum (from everywhere around the world, including the PNW) have spent growing trees that unanimously agree that (almost all) trees need to be outside unless you want to spend the thousands of dollars needed to artificially replicate their exact natural environment indoors. It doesn't take an expert to diagnose it because this is basically step 0 for anyone involved in bonsai.

 

[Seattle Bonsai Newb]

I would heed the advice of others here and move it outside. It's important to remember that outdoors in a shaded spot is still a lot more energy from the sun compared to anywhere inside a house. You're asking for people with experience with the specific symptoms, but poor / deformed growth and shedding leaves aren't symptoms that are diagnostic of anything. It could be overwatering, underwatering, systemic disease, fungal issues, anything really. But we do know it's being kept indoors which is usually a problem and will usually cause poor growth which is why people are suggesting to move it outside. It's the most likely cause, and the first step to take. Move it outdoors and leave it there unless night temperatures start getting consistently below 50f. If you're concerned about scorching, put it somewhere where it only gets morning or late afternoon sun and slowly transition it.

Darzuo, oh yes, I absolutely will, your advice is far better than my guess, but will also nag for details.
Your profile shows MA, can I ask how you manage your Serissa during winter months?

 

[darzuo]

Darzuo, oh yes, I absolutely will, your advice is far better than my guess, but will also nag for details.
Your profile shows MA, can I ask how you manage your Serissa during winter months?

I don't keep Serissa, but my other tropicals / subtropicals I move outdoors in spring, making sure to bring them in if there are any sudden cold snaps, and bring back indoors and overwinter under a grow light. They pretty much stop growing over the colder months inside which is expected.

 

[rockm]

Thanks for your kind words. This is my 2nd Serissa, the first was a gift from my sons, something I would not have purchased, but am now emotionally invested. If this message board can point to specific symptoms and specific remedies we'll all be better off.

We have. You just don’t want to hear it.

Indoor conditions are the root of your serissa’s current problems. Symptoms are of root issues and low indoor humidity and probably over watering and over fertilization for indoor conditions.

The Specific remedy that will clear most of this up is to get the tree outside.

Rockm, sir, your confidence in compelling, thanks again. Not trying to be difficult but... virtually every thread on the board says not to move Serissas. Was hoping to get some statement like "The tree was doing A, so I did B and it worked or didn't work".
Asking for all: Have you had experience with the specific symptoms? What tells you that the small/deformed leaves will be remedied by moving the tree outside? Wouldn't a small deformed leaf suggest a parasitic infestation? Also, you appear to be in Virginia where weather profile may be different enough to warrant different methodology. Please, share your knowledge along with your advice.
BTW I'm a retired aerospace engineer, spent the majority of my long career convincing FAA to approve things, mostly that meant designing and doing tests to show I was right, sometimes the tests failed and I was wrong, but I got to learn something valuable and have some fun. Also learned that to solve a problem it's essential to ask (sometimes forcefully/repeatedly) for help. FAA wouldn't do squat (except mostly laugh), if anyone tried to approve anything based on advice. Anyway, your advice is kindly and respectfully noted, but [all] would like to see the data points.
Kindest Regards,

not to belabor things but the tree should be outside. It’s not rocket science nor engineering

I have worked with Serissa and volunteer at the National Bonsai and Penjing Museum in Washington DC. Have cared for extensive Serissa plantings. Outside solves many problems. The tree may indeed drop leaves and sulk after being moved. Many plants to ficus does. For instance. They readjust and recover.

Inside environments are dry as deserts (relative humidity levels inside are below desert levels in some cases with forced ac and heating) air circulation is minimal and light is less than half oto a third or less of outdoor lighting
I’m speaking from 30 years of hands Ion experience with bonsai. Experience that includes caring ( and killing including Serissa) trying to keep trees inside. It’s an extremely hostile environment for plants compared to outdoors. Yours is showing that stress.

Your tree will be fine outside with increased humidity leaves will flatten out for instance. Dry conditions promote both crinkled leaves for lack of air moisture and accompanying mite infestations which can also cause the same symptoms

Biological problems can be caused by a lot of things including overcare by owners which contributes and amplifies problems. By placing the tree outside you eliminate a huge possible source of many issues

Plants did not evolve inside homes. They can only tolerate (some do it better than others) that environment. FWIW the long Japanese and Chinese traditions of bonsai don’t have “indoor trees”. It’s a western concept mostly developed as a marketing gimmick. Both cultures bring plantings inside sometime but the trees are outside again after only a few days.

 

[Attmos]

We have. You just don’t want to hear it.

Indoor conditions are the root of your serissa’s current problems. Symptoms are of root issues and low indoor humidity and probably over watering and over fertilization for indoor conditions.

The Specific remedy that will clear most of this up is to get the tree outside.

not to belabor things but the tree should be outside. It’s not rocket science nor engineering

I have worked with Serissa and volunteer at the National Bonsai and Penjing Museum in Washington DC. Have cared for extensive Serissa plantings. Outside solves many problems. The tree may indeed drop leaves and sulk after being moved. Many plants to ficus does. For instance. They readjust and recover.

Inside environments are dry as deserts (relative humidity levels inside are below desert levels in some cases with forced ac and heating) air circulation is minimal and light is less than half oto a third or less of outdoor lighting
I’m speaking from 30 years of hands Ion experience with bonsai. Experience that includes caring ( and killing including Serissa) trying to keep trees inside. It’s an extremely hostile environment for plants compared to outdoors. Yours is showing that stress.

Your tree will be fine outside with increased humidity leaves will flatten out for instance. Dry conditions promote both crinkled leaves for lack of air moisture and accompanying mite infestations which can also cause the same symptoms

Biological problems can be caused by a lot of things including overcare by owners which contributes and amplifies problems. By placing the tree outside you eliminate a huge possible source of many issues

Plants did not evolve inside homes. They can only tolerate (some do it better than others) that environment. FWIW the long Japanese and Chinese traditions of bonsai don’t have “indoor trees”. It’s a western concept mostly developed as a marketing gimmick. Both cultures bring plantings inside sometime but the trees are outside again after only a few days.

 

[Seattle Bonsai Newb]

The plant is indoors, under lights. Since it came from a way better lit condition, it will probably have some issues photosynthesizing.

The tips are browning because the evaporation rate is low from the high humidity. A plant needs to lose excess of water through moving air, otherwise the tips where the evaporation rate is the highest and the temperature is the lowest, will collect water and fungal spores. No air movement means fungal spores get time to grow and hurt your plant. It also means that this is the spot where salts will accumulate, as they are drawn to water.

The poor growth can be a result of a lack of light or a poor balance of nutrients, probably both. Add poor evaporation rates to it, and issues photosynthesizing, and high humidity so the stomata never close and the plant never reaches a day-night equilibrium, and you're creating a perfect place for poor health.

Add to that the fact that the soil and roots have trouble breathing, evaporating and drying in a tray and a 70% humidity, and they'll also be likely to slowly get worse.
The watering tray is white from limescale, probably raises the soil pH as well if the water hits the pot bottom, adding to the issue. Plants require a not very specific pH to take up nutrients, but if it's very off then it stops taking in anything but water.

From a laboratory engineer to an aerospace engineer: If all systems are failing, the time for back and forth discussion was last month. Sometimes you just got to try something and see if it works. You've tried this, it's not working great.
Tell your boys that you might want to invite them to buy a new plant, and that you're going to go out on a limb by doing what some people online thought was best. They'll understand. Get some dried flowers, if this plant dies, glue the dried flowers to the dried trunk and you'll still have a nice memorable art piece for in the house and a story of how these people from the internet ruined that plant for you.
That is, in the worst case..
In the best case you figure out what works and you'll enjoy this plant for decades to come.

Mr. Wire_Guy_wire, sir, I too am a wire guy, had the pleasure to work with your countrymen/women in HoogerHeide on a few programs.
"Since it came from a way better lit condition"
Not certain, nursery was a large hoop-style, black-shade-covered (no glass) that probably filtered >50% of light, in addition, plants were placed on shelves, plants on lower shelves (under and behind other plants) probably got 10%-20% light, but seemed quite happy.
"evaporating and drying in a tray and a 70% humidity"
Nursery "shade house" humidity was so high would take your breath away, stepping over the threshold.
"watering tray is white from limescale"
Sorry, it's a white porcelain dish. BTW Seattle (don't tell anybody) may have best water on the planet, all pristine Cascade snow-melt.
"might want to invite them to buy a new plant"
I'm not going down without a fight.
"blah, blah, blah"
hahahahaha, thanks for that!

Vriendelijke groeten

 

[Attmos]

Mr. Wire_Guy_wire, sir, I too am a wire guy, had the pleasure to work with your countrymen/women in HoogerHeide on a few programs.
"Since it came from a way better lit condition"
Not certain, nursery was a large hoop-style, black-shade-covered (no glass) that probably filtered >50% of light, in addition, plants were placed on shelves, plants on lower shelves (under and behind other plants) probably got 10%-20% light, but seemed quite happy.
"evaporating and drying in a tray and a 70% humidity"
Nursery "shade house" humidity was so high would take your breath away, stepping over the threshold.
"watering tray is white from limescale"
Sorry, it's a white porcelain dish. BTW Seattle (don't tell anybody) may have best water on the planet, all pristine Cascade snow-melt.
"might want to invite them to buy a new plant"
I'm not going down without a fight.
"blah, blah, blah"
hahahahaha, thanks for that!

Vriendelijke groeten

Why is "Put it out in the sunlight." not an acceptable response?