Shimpaku 2013001
- Thread starter Paradox
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Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Itowigawa, Kishu or Shimpaku. Do you know for sure what it is? Nice tree by the way, it's going to need some work to make is as good a tree as it was originally structured to be before whoever had it last lost interest in it.
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
She said its a shimpaku (sorry Im not well versed in them so if there is another variety designation, she didnt say). Shes been growing them in upstate NY to get more exposure and availability for them on the east coast.
Any suggestions as to what could be done with it. I admit Im not thrilled with how the upper branch is shaped and I would probably look to doing something with that but I am open to ideas.
I havent had it long enough to study it enough to choose a direction/make my mind up yet. One obvious thing is that the foliage pads need some thinning/shaping. They are a bit bushy atm.
Any suggestions as to what could be done with it. I admit Im not thrilled with how the upper branch is shaped and I would probably look to doing something with that but I am open to ideas.
I havent had it long enough to study it enough to choose a direction/make my mind up yet. One obvious thing is that the foliage pads need some thinning/shaping. They are a bit bushy atm.
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Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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Nice tree. To start, I would try to thin and wire out the pads to get more definition and lose the pom pom affect. Then, study the tree for a while and go from there.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
The place to start is to eliminate any growth that points down. Start by eliminating that stuff then post another photo. I think you will be surprised how much that will open it up.
fore
Omono
Dave, if Paradox wanted to gain girth in the trunk and branches, would you still say thin the overgrown areas, or just let them go for a thicker trunked/branched tree?
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
If you want to gain girth in the trunk maybe you ought to consider carving out some shari. The healing process will expand the trunk more than growing in the ground or allowing some branches to take off to God knows where.
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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This is what I would do, as well. Junipers take forever to thicken in a pot, but directing live veins by carving can give thicken chosen areas of the trunk in a few years.
fore
Omono
Really? I hadn't heard that before, but makes total sense. Thanks guys. Here's why I asked: http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?12051-Shimpaku-1
Sorry Paradox!
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
Thanks guys.
Ill see what I can thin out soon and repost.
No apology needed Fore. I'm glad you asked the question. We both learned from the answers given and I got some info on where to go with this tree.
Ill see what I can thin out soon and repost.
No apology needed Fore. I'm glad you asked the question. We both learned from the answers given and I got some info on where to go with this tree.
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
Its a start.
So I thinned some of the foliage and I did some wiring on the to spread out the smaller branches where there was actually small branches to wire. There are quite a few areas that dont have little branches yet, they are just bunches of the needles.
It still has some pom pom and still needs more thinning but I was afraid to do too much all at once since junipers store energy in their foliage. Ill do more thinning late next spring when it starts to show some growth. Like I said, its a start.
So I thinned some of the foliage and I did some wiring on the to spread out the smaller branches where there was actually small branches to wire. There are quite a few areas that dont have little branches yet, they are just bunches of the needles.
It still has some pom pom and still needs more thinning but I was afraid to do too much all at once since junipers store energy in their foliage. Ill do more thinning late next spring when it starts to show some growth. Like I said, its a start.
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Paulpash
Masterpiece
Have you considered a cascade or semi cascade? How pliable is the lower trunk as it's the straight section there that is a bit problematic? I played around with angles on Gimp a bit and by rotating it clockwise around 130 degress you can wire some movement into the longer branch and get a good cascade tree or by jinning the longer and retaining the shorter you get a more compact semi cascade. By running a curved shari into the straight section we might give the illusion of some movement there if it can't be wired
.
I don't want to do a full virt as it's too bushy to see what can be done with the branches but hopefully you can see what I mean if I just upload it with the tree tipped. Of course this has it's own problems too - namely root elimination from where the nebari now raises out of the pot.
.I don't want to do a full virt as it's too bushy to see what can be done with the branches but hopefully you can see what I mean if I just upload it with the tree tipped. Of course this has it's own problems too - namely root elimination from where the nebari now raises out of the pot.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
This tree as it is, is a full cascade. A cascade is defined as a tree where a major portion of the growth descends below the rim of the pot. What needs to be done has been started, the pads need to be refined. Remove any thing that grows down along the bottom of the pads.
Apply some wire to the branches, put some curves and bends into the small branches to draw them in closer to the main branches and here is the trick; bend the branches down as though the weight of a lot of snow have worked on them but turn up the ends of the branches, where the growth is, as though they are reaching for the light.
When you are designing a tree you have to try to make what you do look as though it has been inflicted by nature, it needs to tell a story and seem to have a reason for existence.
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Paulpash
Masterpiece
The angle of the trunk rising up then down isn't very attractive to me hence why I suggested the adjustment. It also provides a semi cascade option for the OP to consider.
Paulpash
Masterpiece
The angle of the trunk rising up then down isn't very attractive to me hence why I suggested the adjustment - it looks like a trunk then a very long branch rather than a continuous trunk line.
The second reason is that a tree will grow out and away from a rockface to find light. If it's been battered by snow why grow up then down? The tree has no jin to signify snapped limbs due to the weight of snow.
It also provides a semi cascade option for the OP to consider.
Just my half a farthing ....
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
It isn't very attractive to me either but, it is attractive to the OP and it is a move to accomplish something that in the end can be made beautiful with proper development of the rest of the tree ----- including the removal and jining of the now existing top of the tree at some point. In my opinion it is better to get people to see a vision within existing material than to impose my vision on their efforts.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
I kind of think the second image in the last post by Paradox presents an interesting viewpoint. I could see several approaches...played around a bit with photoshop for some very rough ideas.
1. Lower the top and focus on the cascade
2. Eliminate the cascade and just develop the top. Not sure how possible this is as I suspect a lot or all of the foliage below the left branch is coming from the cascade branch/trunk?
3. Further develop both the top and the bottom and make a truly unique (if somewhat incongruous) specimen.
Not sure if anyone sees any merit in any of these, but I had a little time to kill...so make of them what you will.
Chris
1. Lower the top and focus on the cascade
2. Eliminate the cascade and just develop the top. Not sure how possible this is as I suspect a lot or all of the foliage below the left branch is coming from the cascade branch/trunk?
3. Further develop both the top and the bottom and make a truly unique (if somewhat incongruous) specimen.
Not sure if anyone sees any merit in any of these, but I had a little time to kill...so make of them what you will.
Chris
A Random User
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View attachment 44051
Can we please see a pick of your tree with it turned about a quarter to
the left from this view point...
This is your best option for what you currently have. Chris is on the right
path here... However, with this style and virt, we are unable to see the trunk,
which needs to be viewed.
I think if you turn your tree to the left as suggested... you will have a clear
view of your trunk. If so... this would be your front. I would then wire your
main lower branch back towards the viewer. All your other branches will have to
follow suit.
When trying to decide "How" to style a tree, the first thing one needs to figure out
is what I would refer to as your "Main Action Line". This will be the Most dominate
feature of the tree and will tell the story of your tree as well.
This is a trick that I learned a long time ago, when taking Human Figure drawing
classes... Where we used to warm up with 30 second poses. Obviously one can not
come up with a lot in thirty secs. so, I found that if one gets the Main Action Line,
which tells the story of the pose, everything else one could fill in later.
For some trees, this is easy such as an up-right formal tree, this would be a vertical straight
up and down line... which in turn would determine your branch design, very straight,
mostly horizontal branches. Others may have multiple conflicting lines, and will be harder to
determine.
When one looks at your tree, the most predominate feature as it currently stands, is
your downward sweeping branch from right to left. If one wishes to keep this branch
it is your "Main Action Line"... and is telling the story of your tree. All other branches
wired or styled should then conform to this action.
Hope this helps...
Can we please see a pick of your tree with it turned about a quarter to
the left from this view point...
This is your best option for what you currently have. Chris is on the right
path here... However, with this style and virt, we are unable to see the trunk,
which needs to be viewed.
I think if you turn your tree to the left as suggested... you will have a clear
view of your trunk. If so... this would be your front. I would then wire your
main lower branch back towards the viewer. All your other branches will have to
follow suit.
When trying to decide "How" to style a tree, the first thing one needs to figure out
is what I would refer to as your "Main Action Line". This will be the Most dominate
feature of the tree and will tell the story of your tree as well.
This is a trick that I learned a long time ago, when taking Human Figure drawing
classes... Where we used to warm up with 30 second poses. Obviously one can not
come up with a lot in thirty secs. so, I found that if one gets the Main Action Line,
which tells the story of the pose, everything else one could fill in later.
For some trees, this is easy such as an up-right formal tree, this would be a vertical straight
up and down line... which in turn would determine your branch design, very straight,
mostly horizontal branches. Others may have multiple conflicting lines, and will be harder to
determine.
When one looks at your tree, the most predominate feature as it currently stands, is
your downward sweeping branch from right to left. If one wishes to keep this branch
it is your "Main Action Line"... and is telling the story of your tree. All other branches
wired or styled should then conform to this action.
Hope this helps...
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Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
Pictures from other angles as requested
As I said this is a start. As suggested by Vance, I thinned some of the foliage and I wired some of the smaller branches and all of the end of the lower branch as it was not wired at all to spread out the branches and see what was there.
I think I took off quite a bit of foliage. Maybe I could have taken more off, but I dont know how much I can take off without potentially harming the tree. It is now November, next spring when it can recover better, Ill look at it again and see what I will do next. There are lots of possibilities but Id like to study the tree longer before I make up my mind what Im going to cut/jin and what Im not. Once its cut/jinned, you cant change your mind so I like to take my time with this.
Coh Thanks for the ideas, Ill keep them in mind as possibilities.
This tree has had some training. There is some movement on the branches although it might be hard to see through all the foliage.
This was a tree that was offered up on a raffle table at my bonsai club. Yes, its not a world class bonsai, but it was the only thing there that was anything close to a trained tree at all. I also dont have a shimpaku and as we know they are usually pretty expensive. This tree is a easy way to learn about them without spending alot of money. Later on I might look for a better shimpaku once I know more about them through this one.
In any case all ideas/discussion are welcome. They may show other possibilities that I might miss.
As I said this is a start. As suggested by Vance, I thinned some of the foliage and I wired some of the smaller branches and all of the end of the lower branch as it was not wired at all to spread out the branches and see what was there.
I think I took off quite a bit of foliage. Maybe I could have taken more off, but I dont know how much I can take off without potentially harming the tree. It is now November, next spring when it can recover better, Ill look at it again and see what I will do next. There are lots of possibilities but Id like to study the tree longer before I make up my mind what Im going to cut/jin and what Im not. Once its cut/jinned, you cant change your mind so I like to take my time with this.
Coh Thanks for the ideas, Ill keep them in mind as possibilities.
This tree has had some training. There is some movement on the branches although it might be hard to see through all the foliage.
This was a tree that was offered up on a raffle table at my bonsai club. Yes, its not a world class bonsai, but it was the only thing there that was anything close to a trained tree at all. I also dont have a shimpaku and as we know they are usually pretty expensive. This tree is a easy way to learn about them without spending alot of money. Later on I might look for a better shimpaku once I know more about them through this one.
In any case all ideas/discussion are welcome. They may show other possibilities that I might miss.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
There are no real dead ends here just trips that will take longer than others. At this point this material does not represent clearly an image that is beyond the every day cascade bonsai.
