Shimpaku health question.

[MikeNickerson88]

Hey everyone I just picked up this Shimpaku up yesterday

So my question: Does this seem to look like over watering to you guys? From what I’ve read it looks like it could be from over watering. Any thoughts? It seems rather root bound as the drainage holes were clogged with dead fine roots, no fowl smell detected from the bottom so I don’t think it’s root rot. Any advice or opinions would be great.
Thanks.

 

[Shibui]

Sorry but you cannot diagnose root rot from looking at the leaves. Leaf symptoms are the same for root rot, too dry, too hot, too much sun and probably more.
A few roots showing at the drain hole does not indicate root bound. Roots grow out to the edges of the pot then follow it down so the first spot they show up is the drain hole, well before the pot is filled with roots.
Lifting the plant out of the pot is the only real,way to work out what's going on. If all the soil falls off the roots it was not pot bound. If the root ball is one hard, solid mass of roots it is root bound.
Even if you find it is root bound what will you do at this time of year? You don't have any location in your profile so we don't know if you are in northern or southern hemisphere which would impact on what can be done now.

Your tree appears to be in a very big pot for its size. Good for beginners to get acquainted with bonsai are but the pot makes that tree look really small and skinny.

 

[MikeNickerson88]

Sorry but you cannot diagnose root rot from looking at the leaves. Leaf symptoms are the same for root rot, too dry, too hot, too much sun and probably more.
A few roots showing at the drain hole does not indicate root bound. Roots grow out to the edges of the pot then follow it down so the first spot they show up is the drain hole, well before the pot is filled with roots.
Lifting the plant out of the pot is the only real,way to work out what's going on. If all the soil falls off the roots it was not pot bound. If the root ball is one hard, solid mass of roots it is root bound.
Even if you find it is root bound what will you do at this time of year? You don't have any location in your profile so we don't know if you are in northern or southern hemisphere which would impact on what can be done now.

Your tree appears to be in a very big pot for its size. Good for beginners to get acquainted with bonsai are but the pot makes that tree look really small and skinny.

Sorry didn’t realize I forgot to add my location: Washington state and zone: 8a.
As for the pot it is a bit big but again I wasn’t the one who repotted it. But I agree it is to large for the tree

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Looks overpotted, probably overwatered (based on the foliage-to-pot ratio), poorly pruned, and likely starved of sunlight and fert. I’d get it in full sun, feed it heavily with some fish emulsion or seaweed and let the soil get a little dry between watering. It should still grow a little in the fall. Don’t prune anything off...

Next spring, get it into an appropriately-sized pot. The trouble with these relatively deep cascades is that the bottom stays wet, and roots drown, and the top dries out, and the roots wither.

 

[MikeNickerson88]

Looks overpotted, probably overwatered (based on the foliage-to-pot ratio), poorly pruned, and likely starved of sunlight and fert. I’d get it in full sun, feed it heavily with some fish emulsion or seaweed and let the soil get a little dry between watering. It should still grow a little in the fall. Don’t prune anything off...

Next spring, get it into an appropriately-sized pot. The trouble with these relatively deep cascades is that the bottom stays wet, and roots drown, and the top dries out, and the roots wither.

I agree with you on that it’s definitely over watered I pulled it out of the pot last night and it was soaking wet still even though I haven’t even watered it yet since purchasing it the day before. And it looked like red lava rock mixed with muck definitely poor soil but it has tons of roots. Would it go into shock if I just put it straight into direct sunlight? The nursery I got it from had all its trees under shade cloth for some reason. As for getting an appropriate size pot would it look better in a shallow rectangular pot or round pot you think? The dimensions of the pot it’s currently in is about 9 1/4in long and 4 1/2in deep. Here’s a size comparison to my pruning shears (I haven’t pruned any foliage at all on this tree since buying it)

 

[sorce]

It will probably thrive in full sun, and a new pot.

Welcome to Crazy!

I'd pot it now.

Sorce

 

[MikeNickerson88]

It will probably thrive in full sun, and a new pot.

Welcome to Crazy!

I'd pot it now.

Sorce

You think a full repotting would do the trick right now? Rinsing the roots entirely or leaving some soil in the roots? I’ll get photo of the roots/mucky soil once daylight breaks a little more. Just need to find a new pot today then I guess.

 

[sorce]

You think a full repotting would do the trick right now? Rinsing the roots entirely or leaving some soil in the roots? I’ll get photo of the roots/mucky soil once daylight breaks a little more. Just need to find a new pot today then I guess.

I'd ask @0soyoung how heavy of work you could get away with .....if any.

I feel like you have 2 choices, lose it over winter, or lose it to this Repot. 50% survival either way.

Sorce

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

You think a full repotting would do the trick right now? Rinsing the roots entirely or leaving some soil in the roots? I’ll get photo of the roots/mucky soil once daylight breaks a little more. Just need to find a new pot today then I guess.

A too large pot isn't an issue in my view.
Muck can be an issue. If the roots still look healthy, the tree can probably take a full root rinse. Otherwise I'm with the magic man sorce; could die over winter, could die from the repot.
Just make sure that the soil you put it in, is coarse and free draining. Otherwise you'll be repeating this step until the soil is right.

After heavy rootwork and bare rooting, some of my junipers need a year of recovery. Especially the older ones. Take it slow.

 

[MikeNickerson88]

A too large pot isn't an issue in my view.
Muck can be an issue. If the roots still look healthy, the tree can probably take a full root rinse. Otherwise I'm with the magic man sorce; could die over winter, could die from the repot.
Just make sure that the soil you put it in, is coarse and free draining. Otherwise you'll be repeating this step until the soil is right.

After heavy rootwork and bare rooting, some of my junipers need a year of recovery. Especially the older ones. Take it slow.

Alright so I’ll get a better look at the roots and if they seem healthy I’ll fit it a shot and just us the same pot for now so I hopefully wont have to cut too much of the roots away. This one is about 30 years old from what I was told.

 

[MikeNickerson88]

This was covering the drainage holes. I had previously cleared the drains out prior to this picture

It doesn’t look as bad in daylight now but it’s still looks like lava rock and mud.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Not too bad, but get rid of that Irish moss on the soil. It is terrible for air exchange, and keeps the soil wet.

A better pot would be something like these:

Round Drum Tokoname Bonsai Tree Pot By The Yamaaki Kiln 10 3/8 By 3 1/4” | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Round Drum Tokoname Bonsai Tree Pot By The Yamaaki Kiln 10 3/8 By 3 1/4” at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Round Drum Tokoname Bonsai Tree Pot By The Yamaaki Kiln 10 3/8 By 3 1/4” | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Round Drum Tokoname Bonsai Tree Pot By The Yamaaki Kiln 10 3/8 By 3 1/4” at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Older Unglazed Drum Style Tokoname Bonsai Tree Pot Made By Yamaaki 12 1/8 By 4” | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Older Unglazed Drum Style Tokoname Bonsai Tree Pot Made By Yamaaki 12 1/8 By 4” at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

My itoigawa are in soil like that. They seem to like it.
If the moss and dandruff are removed, I guess it should be fine / good enough.
As long as you keep in mind that this soil probably will be pretty water retentive. Skip a day in between waterings, maybe two.

If you don't do a full repot but do as I suggested here in this comment, I see no harm in putting it in full sun right after - but adjust your watering to that too.
If you go for the full bare root, I'd give it two weeks of half shade before putting it out in the sun.

 

[MikeNickerson88]

Not too bad, but get rid of that Irish moss on the soil. It is terrible for air exchange, and keeps the soil wet.

A better pot would be something like these:

Round Drum Tokoname Bonsai Tree Pot By The Yamaaki Kiln 10 3/8 By 3 1/4” | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Round Drum Tokoname Bonsai Tree Pot By The Yamaaki Kiln 10 3/8 By 3 1/4” at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

View attachment 327020

Round Drum Tokoname Bonsai Tree Pot By The Yamaaki Kiln 10 3/8 By 3 1/4” | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Round Drum Tokoname Bonsai Tree Pot By The Yamaaki Kiln 10 3/8 By 3 1/4” at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

View attachment 327021

Older Unglazed Drum Style Tokoname Bonsai Tree Pot Made By Yamaaki 12 1/8 By 4” | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Older Unglazed Drum Style Tokoname Bonsai Tree Pot Made By Yamaaki 12 1/8 By 4” at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

View attachment 327022

those are some nice pots. Good taste. I just spent the last hour and a half pulling that Irish moss out that was a pain in the ass for sure.

 

[MikeNickerson88]

My itoigawa are in soil like that. They seem to like it.
If the moss and dandruff are removed, I guess it should be fine / good enough.
As long as you keep in mind that this soil probably will be pretty water retentive. Skip a day in between waterings, maybe two.

If you don't do a full repot but do as I suggested here in this comment, I see no harm in putting it in full sun right after - but adjust your watering to that too.
If you go for the full bare root, I'd give it two weeks of half shade before putting it out in the sun.

so I should take all the moss off completely not just the Irish weed moss?
I think I’m going to try and not mess with the roots right now I think it’ll be fine as long as I do what you mentioned and watch the moisture level in my soil and skip a day or to depending on the weather and water retention. Thanks for all the advice.

 

[sorce]

Consider a training basket for a couple years.

This is a nice peice, too nice to not allow it a year of antifancy.

Sorce

 

[MikeNickerson88]

Consider a training basket for a couple years.

This is a nice peice, too nice to not allow it a year of antifancy.

Sorce

Just slip potting it into pond basket and fill the bottom and sides with pumice yeah?
Thanks I love the look of the tree. Reminds me of Nigel Saunders little birds nest tree.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Just slip potting it into pond basket and fill the bottom and sides with pumice yeah?
Nigel Saunders little birds nest tree.

NOOOOOOOOOOOO x2

 

[MikeNickerson88]

NOOOOOOOOOOOO x2

Talking about a bonsai training pot then? With the mesh bottom? Or

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Talking about a bonsai training pot then? With the mesh bottom? Or

I don’t do pond baskets or Nigel. Its just not how I approach bonsai.
I do think your tree is ok, and the roots look like they’ll be fine. Sun, feed, and good watering schedule will make the difference, and a slightly shallower pot in the spring will set it on the right path. It’s smaller than I thought, so I’d suggest something only slightly wider, but about 1/3-1/2 of the depth.