Shimpaku pale green

[CWTurner]

This is the tree that was included in my first bonsai lesson in November 2014. Since the styling that fall, all I have done is repot it into a smaller pot, watered and fed it with that blue granules and fish fertilizer. Oh, and I gave it (and all my other trees) a dunk in the Bayer 12 Month Tree and Shrub Protect and Feed at slightly less than recommended strength.


Last summer (before the dunking)it began to turn this pale shade of green. I scratched the bark and it didn't look green, so I wrote it off as dead. Still I generally cared for it as if it were alive.

This spring I am getting nice greener tips, and even some little blue/green buds, but the overall tree is still quite pale (compare to the shimpaku seedling on its right).

Any ideas what I did wrong, or didn't do right?

I was thinking Ironite to get it greener, but want some opinions before I do.
CW

 

[coh]

Have you had the seedling for the same time period and kept it in the same area (same amount of sun) as the older tree, or is the seedling a new acquisition? Are they in the same type of soil? If the larger tree is in inorganic and the seedling organic, it could be as simple as not enough fertilizer. My junipers tended to be pale until I started increasing the amount of fertilizer, color has been better since.

You could try iron. Or perhaps epsom salts, at a recent demonstration David Easterbrook was saying he has found junipers respond well to that.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Spider mites.

 

[CamdenJim]

Thanks for posting this, @CWTurner.
I'm actually relieved this happened to someone else!

I bought four really small shimpaku starters through one of the Facebook auction sites last year, just to play around with them as a learning experience. Bare-rooted two, left the other two alone, then planted two (one stripped of soil, the other one's roots left alone) in the ground, and the other two in pots. The two in the ground are fine, growing like proverbial weeds, and surprising to me, the bare-rooted plant in the pot is going along like nothing's wrong in the world.
The one I just moved into a small round unglazed ceramic pot went through exactly the process you described. The foliage grew pale, and I thought it was dead. BUT the foliage never crisped up. I fed it a little bit more, and it greened up a little. Not much, just a little. Over the winter, the foliage remained soft, but became even paler.
I started feeding it again in the spring, and its color is improving, but it's still not right. It's bluish, and I'm getting what looks like the beginning of juvenile foliage.
What is this!?
Given what I've had happen with a couple of boxwoods, I think I'll try Epsom Salts. If that doesn't do the job, I'll move on to iron supplements.
AND tomorrow I'll take some photos of both of them, side by side, and post those.

Jim-the-puzzled

 

[MichaelS]

Mites as mentioned or root problems (rot from wet or dry) Nothing to do with nutrients I'd say.
Worth remembering....Iron is very immobile so deficiency shows up in the new leaves.
Magnesium is very mobile so it shows up in the old leaves (first)

 

[CamdenJim]

Spider mites.

I've checked mine, Brian, and haven't seen any.

 

[CamdenJim]

I wonder about the pots themselves, and how they react with chemicals in fertilizers (organic or inorganic).
The bare-rooted pant went into a "vintage" cascade -- unglazed brown clay. (I had a crazy idea about a round-and-round cascade at the time.) The other went into a new pot, one of three I bought that are new but of a similar clay.
I suppose there could be an included mineral in one or the other that reacts with chemicals in either the Bham water or the fertilizers I've used.
Jim

 

[garywood]

Spider mites, classic case.

 

[markyscott]

It really looks like spider mite damage. Doesn't have to be, but that would be my first suspicion.

Imidacloprid is not effective against spider mites - that would include Bayer and Merit.

http://www.walterreeves.com/tools-and-chemicals/imidacloprid-will-not-kill-spider-mites2/

Residual miticides are not widely available to the general public. Effective active ingredients include bifenthrin, deltamethrin, and lambda cyhalothrin. They are restricted use pesticides and are hard to get unless you're a certified applicator.

But there is something that is quite effective and doesn't require chemicals at all. Do this:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10209363362749301

Several times a week and you'll really keep populations down.

The pale color will not go away. It has to be replaced by new growth.

 

[coh]

It does look like spider mite damage, but that doesn't mean that it is spider mite damage.

When I was having problems with my junipers, I looked for spider mites. I've seen what infestations look like on other plants, but I never found evidence of a single mite on the junipers. In my case I think it was a cultural issue (too much sun + not enough fertilizer). This case, who knows...we don't have enough information.It could be damage from a mite attack last year, and the mites might be gone now. It could also be scale, there are some very small scale insects that attack junipers and they can be hard to see.

I'd go with the water spray method, I routinely spray my conifers and many other trees and have eliminated mite infestations on some plants that way. As noted, imidacloprid doesn't work on mites and there are actually studies that show that it can increase the reproductive rate of some mites, making the infestation worse.

 

[MichaelS]

Spraying with water is not good enough IMO. Certainly won't work for juniper scale. At least use a dilute lime sulphur or soap or oil. Your hydroponic store should have suitable acaricides. But first you need to be sure what it is!

 

[markyscott]

Of course, I made no claims about the effectiveness of spraying with water on scale. But to be crystal clear - it is not effective at all for that. But it's absolutely effective for controlling both spider mites and aphids. For mites, recommending the use of oils and soaps in place of spraying is bad advice, IMO. Read the article I linked from Dr. Foord from the Univ. of Minnesota - he suggests that both oils and soaps are only modestly effective on mites. I can't make a claim about oils based on personal experience, but I've found soaps such as Safer alone to be an inadequate control even with regular application. But spraying with a strong stream of water as I showed in the video has been an adequate control for me. If you wish to use oils and soaps, at least do so in combination with spraying. Don't bother with other commonly used insecticides based on chemicals such as spinosad, imlidacloprad, and carbaryl as they are completely ineffective.

The only oil I use for mite control is a dormant oil spray - that combined with spraying, which easily dislodges mite populations that develop during the season, is a very effective control. If you don't believe me or Dr. Foord, here is another article from UC Davis:

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7405.html

 

[chicago1980]

could you use neem oil on spider mites? suffocation.

 

[chicago1980]

My Shimpaku turned pale and I decided to repot the tree, the tree was in field soil. I also reduced the foliage about 20% (selectively).

Fully recovered and is budding up nicely and turned a nice green again. I did start the Dr. Earth Life fert about 2 weeks after.

 

[markyscott]

could you use neem oil on spider mites? suffocation.

From the article by Dr. Foord:

"If you want to treat your plants, consider applying insecticidal soap or horticultural oil. Although they are only moderately effective against mites, they are ‘soft’ on natural enemies and helps preserve any predators or parasites that are present. The product must directly contact the mites to kill them and repeated treatments may be necessary."

Spraying with a strong stream of water a couple of times a week is important if you want to control spider mites. Spraying with oils and soaps is optional, but extremely important if you want to support your local box store. They are only modestly effective and regular water spraying alone has been adequate for me. As I said - the only oil I use is a dormant oil spray.

 

[CWTurner]

Thank you everyone for your helpful responses. My repotting and Bayer-dunking were in response to the paling off of the tree. Sorry to hear that it won't control mites. I did shake the tree over some paper last year but found no insect evidence. When I bare rooted the tree I also saw no insect evidence.

I actually have a jewelers loop 20x that I use to inspect leaves (maybe I don't know what I'm looking at?).

I will try Scott's water stream spray.
CW

 

[GrimLore]

Any ideas what I did wrong, or didn't do right?

If there are no problems with critters and you are treating it as the others, and it otherwise appears healthy other then "lighter green" - not yellow... Well then consider this - It could be normal color for an Itoigawa which along with Kishu are often sold as Shimpaku - just saying that because the Itoigawa will be far paler as it grows older...

Grimmy

 

[CWTurner]

the Itoigawa will be far paler as it grows older...

YES!, it is not MY fault!
CW

 

[GrimLore]

YES!, it is not MY fault!
CW

Could be normal is all, check out this blog entry by Brian Van Fleet to see what I am referring to https://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/...s-among-itoigawa-kishu-and-shimpaku-junipers/. All I can add is every Juniper I have ever seen mature or maturing always seems to change color a bit, lighter, darker, etc...

Grimmy

 

[markyscott]

For color reference, the shimpaku in the video I posted is a fairly old itoigawa.

Here are a couple of examples documenting my experience:



These are kishu. The older juvenile pale foliage resulted from a spider mite infestation I attempted to treat for two years with Merit and Bayer along with regular spraying with Safer soap. The new bright green scale foliage grew after I changed regimen to regular (once or twice weekly) water spraying plus one dormant oil treatment. This is what I hope you see.

Make sure you hold the plant steady at the root base when you spray so as not to dislodge the plant or disturb the roots.