Shinpaku progression / skills check in 2021

[Japonicus]

I'm not saying this needs to be done, but thinking on what 0soyoung frequently mentions
that the top should bow towards the viewer...but have you shimmed the back of the pot up steeply, erecting the trunk
to see how different planting angles affect this? Your most recent posts seem to cascade the 1st branch.
Can you see where I mentioned a knuckle will swell on that branch? It's swollen somewhat already.
So yeh, as I'm putting this post together, @Hartinez is on the same thought of changing the planting angle, next time.
I agree, it has some potential, and the jins look pretty slick too
I love the 2 knots at the bottom in the triangular window I'm posting here

I'm not normally a fan of these kind of windows
when created by branches, but this has a different appeal there, maybe.

So everybody including BonsaiNut says this branch, my main and 1st branch should go
because it is too big though still a bit smaller than the trunk itself

Split a branch and chickened out today. When to wedge?

Sargent or Parsons. It is very prickly, more so than the 2 other Sargent juniper I have. Is from nursery stock back when :) Too heavy for me to wire I used 2 guy wires on a branch that forks ~ 1" from the trunk. This is the back side of the tree. The front fork I did 1st and have left on. The...

www.bonsainut.com

Doing that, removing that branch, kills the design of the tree in my mind, so I have left it be for now.
Had I earlier on, in its life kept the foliage in check better, and not allowed so much to go on with that branch
I would not have received the input of removing the entire branch, save for a jin and added girth in the meantime.

 

[badatusernames]

I'm not saying this needs to be done, but thinking on what 0soyoung frequently mentions
that the top should bow towards the viewer...but have you shimmed the back of the pot up steeply, erecting the trunk
to see how different planting angles affect this? Your most recent posts seem to cascade the 1st branch.
Can you see where I mentioned a knuckle will swell on that branch? It's swollen somewhat already.
So yeh, as I'm putting this post together, @Hartinez is on the same thought of changing the planting angle, next time.
I agree, it has some potential, and the jins look pretty slick too
I love the 2 knots at the bottom in the triangular window I'm posting here
View attachment 399192
I'm not normally a fan of these kind of windows
when created by branches, but this has a different appeal there, maybe.

So everybody including BonsaiNut says this branch, my main and 1st branch should go
because it is too big though still a bit smaller than the trunk itself

Split a branch and chickened out today. When to wedge?

Sargent or Parsons. It is very prickly, more so than the 2 other Sargent juniper I have. Is from nursery stock back when :) Too heavy for me to wire I used 2 guy wires on a branch that forks ~ 1" from the trunk. This is the back side of the tree. The front fork I did 1st and have left on. The...

www.bonsainut.com

Doing that, removing that branch, kills the design of the tree in my mind, so I have left it be for now.
Had I earlier on, in its life kept the foliage in check better, and not allowed so much to go on with that branch
I would not have received the input of removing the entire branch, save for a jin and added girth in the meantime.

Now we’re cooking! I think we’re on the same page. I don’t know that I would change the angle as dramatically as Hartinez but I was just coming here to say that these are the two branches in particular that jump out as ones to go





And yes, my thought was to give that first branch more of a cascade look. The current angle in the pot was not chosen by me. I do like how it kind of thrusts back before coming forward again, but that may not be appropriate.

 

[badatusernames]

Here's a photo from a real camera, that might help things. You can see that first branch I point to right off the bat, nothing needed but to cut it if that's what's to be done. For the second, I'd bring the branches above it down to cove the space. That would also give me something to do with that big weird one I was thinking about earlier, which is currently still kilted off at a weird angle. It isn't as bad as five branches coming from one spot - there is a juncture of two branches before splitting off into more - so I don't believe from a horticulture / aesthetics perspective it would be necessary to remove more. Could be wrong.

 

[Japonicus]

before coming forward again,

I'm sorry, I don't see this occurring, especially with the one taken with the real camera.

This is how I would address your 1st branch ATM

The left bold red mark remove now. Remove branch later, but reduce its energy now
The 2 thin red lines remove.
The bold red square holds a significant branch I would begin moving some next year.
After you've successfully moved this branch, THEN I would remove other branches
and thin the heaviest branch beginning late May next year. Continue thinning on it
as you're beginning to move that smaller significant branch out somewhat to the left more.
Thin the heavier branch even more...eventually it will be removed. If you fail at moving the smaller
branch into position and it dies, you still have the other branch I'm suggesting needs to be removed
and refer to as heavier as it is. But that's just how I would proceed.

BTW this is I think, a better planting angle than present? Prop it up and swivel it around.
Set it beside the tv and bring it in the house off and on and put it where you'll pass by it often
for a couple hours. Enjoy what you've done so far, and ponder a few ideas.

 

[NamesakE]

The trunk and Shari show good potential. It looks wired, but still unstyled.

Form pads with branches by setting them in positions like fingers radiating out from your upturned palm. Then trim off the foliage in crotches of branches, and the stuff that grows downward. Create an apex just below the highest Jin. Make sure you have branches radiating outward from the trunk on all sides so the tree has a bit of a rounded silhouette from all sides.

Here is a markup showing what I would do with your tree’s branches, the silhouette I would go for, and an example:
View attachment 398858View attachment 398859

Is that bottom picture tree yours BVF? If it is... nice!

 

[bwaynef]

While I agree that the earlier you can set structure appropriately, the better off what you build will be, right now that poor structure is going to facilitate backbudding. Those backbuds can then be simplified and structure set. I would NOT remove any more branching or foliage on this tree right now.

(I would wire all the branches so the angles are right and they can get as much sunlight as possible in close to the right locations.)

 

[badatusernames]

While I agree that the earlier you can set structure appropriately, the better off what you build will be, right now that poor structure is going to facilitate backbudding. Those backbuds can then be simplified and structure set. I would NOT remove any more branching or foliage on this tree right now.

(I would wire all the branches so the angles are right and they can get as much sunlight as possible in close to the right locations.)

yeah, I think I see it now but I don’t want to keep messing with it, going to let it alone for now, I appreciate your input!

 

[Stella]

I'm here in your thread to learn from the comments as I am working on my 1st juniper.
One thing we learn at our club is that your movement must come towards the viewer. so looking at your tree again, it feels like your branches is moving away instead of forward. even looks like the main trunk is leaning backwards.
Might be something to look at.
Would love to here what some of the experts think about this

 

[Forsoothe!]

I think a great deal more is seen by people in these two-dimensional pictures than is there to see, or is possible to see.

 

[Japonicus]

I think a great deal more is seen by people in these two-dimensional pictures than is there to see, or is possible to see.

Post #15 has a video

 

[badatusernames]

I think it’ll get left like this til spring at least. Lots of refinements to do but I’m not even cleaning up hanging foliage at this point, as @bwaynef calls out there’s more growing to do so this will likely go into a grow pot next year. Still unclear if unglazed works just as well but imagine a deeper pot would at least be necessary.

the branches are broadly where I think I want them and I can tweak again/ cut things off later

IMO, at least, it’s moving in a much better direction than in post #1!

it might look plucked but I can start to see it’s future state from here

 

[badatusernames]

So what do I get for 2021, about a C / C+? Hahah. Personally I'm happy, given that I really haven't done much with juniper on my own before. Very different shaping philosophy than what I've been focused on I think, and really needs that hands on learning. I'm glad I've taken it on as a project - we'll have to see if juniper catches me more deeply as a species. I'm glad I was able to rough this out without feeling the need to cut anything substantial off - I wanted to see if I could operate from a perspective of how to use what I have, vs. getting rid of something or thinking I would regrow something. Junipers being such slow growers makes that stick in my mind a bit better, I think!

I very much see the argument for changing the angle and removing the branch in the future and am leaning in that direction. I feel with more maturity and growth there's the opportunity to compact this much further if it makes sense to do so, and I can clean up the problematic branching next year ahead of the growing season.

At this point I feel like it's better to let it grow, because otherwise I'm just going to keep moving branches around to cover one gap or another with limited material. @Japonicus - I'm curious if you would stand by the foliage removal recommendation given where the tree sits now. I'm probably going to bring it to show my mentor in person at this point to see how he feels - but it had already changed by the time you posted that so I was curious of the opinion had changed.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Post #15 has a video

That makes a lot more sense!

 

[Colorado]

I agree there is nothing further to be done right now. Just needs time to grow and accumulate foliage to work with.

Consider this:


Just my 2 cents. Nice start!

 

[SeanS]

If it were my tree I’d make the branching mimic the trunk more with some twists and tight turns which would also bring the foliage in closer to the trunk for a more compact tree

 

[SeanS]

Here’s a great video by @Eric Schrader that gives some good insight into how to create small sized junipers

 

[badatusernames]

Here’s a great video by @Eric Schrader that gives some good insight into how to create small sized junipers

thanks, I need to do a deep dive on his videos

 

[River's Edge]

Junipers being such slow growers makes that stick in my mind a bit better, I think!

Not sure if you should feel that way. Junipers can be very fast growing trees. Best to plan for fewer branches and more space available for pad development. I feel the essential difficulty you encountered with this project might possibly be due to not removing unnecessary branches before thinning foliage and wiring. Would suggest you consider simplifying your approach for long term improvement in Bonsai design. Strong designs can be built on a few primary branches for small and medium size trees. Congestion occurs quickly when too many primary or secondary branches remain. This also prevents healthy development of foliage and lack of space for pad development over time. Just a couple of observations for your consideration.
A good resource for juniper technique is the Bonsai Today Masters Series Junipers available through Stone Lantern I believe. The third chapter on ramification is particularly helpful for beginners. Lots of additional; material for those wishing to explore more advanced progress as well.

 

[badatusernames]

Not sure if you should feel that way. Junipers can be very fast growing trees. Best to plan for fewer branches and more space available for pad development. I feel the essential difficulty you encountered with this project might possibly be due to not removing unnecessary branches before thinning foliage and wiring. Would suggest you consider simplifying your approach for long term improvement in Bonsai design. Strong designs can be built on a few primary branches for small and medium size trees. Congestion occurs quickly when too many primary or secondary branches remain. This also prevents healthy development of foliage and lack of space for pad development over time. Just a couple of observations for your consideration.
A good resource for juniper technique is the Bonsai Today Masters Series Junipers available through Stone Lantern I believe. The third chapter on ramification is particularly helpful for beginners. Lots of additional; material for those wishing to explore more advanced progress as well.

I actually have that book and I think you’re probably right

playing it safe means I still have everything, but I don’t think backing in to a shape and being overly cautious works very well for actual good bonsai technique