Shishigashira (extreme) raw material

[Hoyonokuma]

Hi everyone.
Was walking through the local garden center a few days ago with the intention to buy some insulating material to protect my plants' roots during fall.
I stumbled in this lonely Shishigashira that was on sale for less than 20€ so I said, why not
The amount of possibilities due to low branching and the diameter of the trunk (1 meter tall, 3cm of d) turned it for my unexperienced eyes into a reasonable deal (I've spent much more on weaker and lesser developed maples on Maillot).

Now, my newbie eye tells me I have 2 'possible fronts' (A, B) :

A

B

Other views



Of course, I'll need to repot it next March/April 'cause I can't even see the nabari, due to the number of superficial roots and how deep it was planted, and second because I'd like to grow it in a better draining soil.

My questions to you are various..
1. What front? I'd probably go with B as of now.

Then, about those 2 low branches: one will have to go I suppose, as they're competing for the same spot and leaving them both would possibly create visible inverse taper.
Between those, I'd opt to get rid of the bottom one and probably guy wire the other into a slightly steeper angle.
The latter also has some better movement and start of ramification.
(correct me if it ain't make no sense)


Next is: should I clip the main trunk (or even air layer it) and make a new leader of the only left (slightly wired) branch?
I recon Mach had some troubles with having Shishigashiras backbudding.
Shall I still go for the Clip and Grow or can I let the main trunk grow taller and still end up with a decent taper, sometime before retirement? (I'm 28)lol

Other option I see is: shouldn't I keep the early ramification instead, and cut it all back to increase branching/future movement? Or would that leave me with 0 lower taper?



Thanks in advance for any consideration on the matter.
I wish ya'll a good Sunday.

Federico

 

[BobbyLane]

i can see from that one pic, you did some digging for treasure at the nursery
if youve ever been to a nursery ive visited, you can tell i was there because all the pots have deep crevices around the base
anyway its good to see this, it shows enthusiasm, youd be surprised how many cant be bothered to do this, nobody wants to get on their knees and dig around in the dirt, its an important aspect of tree selection that is often overlooked.

 

[sorce]

What front?

Have a scramble down into those roots so we can tell!

Or maybe just layer it to ditch the graft.

Sorce

 

[HorseloverFat]

Have a scramble down into those roots so we can tell!

Or maybe just layer it to ditch the graft.

Sorce

Maybe BOTH!

 

[Hoyonokuma]

@BobbyLane
Ahah much appreciated
Have to admit I didn't have to do much of a job though, cause it was merely a garden center and everything had already been potted
I did dig my index fingers in all them lil gallon pots, however, where it made any sense at all.
Many scions were already separating from their rootstocks.. But material arouns here ain't very good and either you invest a whole day driving somewhere or you get what you find.

@sorce
Having my hairs cut now (I need some prune, too, once in a while) and then I'll try to look a bit deeper in the pot.

 

[SantaFe]

I really like and appreciate posts like Federico’s that show photos marked-up with possible pruning approaches - I’m new, and these posts help me visualize the way more experienced bonsai growers do. It’s VERY helpful...thanks, Federico!

 

[Hoyonokuma]

@SantaFe thanks for the kind words
However, I'm just a beginner as well cause the very few things I know come from reading and not from direct experience (thus the need to ask knowledgeable minds, such as the guys above, for their opinion. They belong to a different universe).
Only thing I can tell myself is: don't be ashamed to ask.. I do am sometimes, but need to overcome it if you want to learn from the whole process.

 

[SantaFe]

@SantaFe thanks for the kind words
However, I'm just a beginner as well cause the very few things I know come from reading and not from direct experience (thus the need to ask knowledgeable minds, such as the guys above, for their opinion. They belong to a different universe).
Only thing I can tell myself is: don't be ashamed to ask.. I do am sometimes, but need to overcome it if you want to learn from the whole process.

Excellent advice not just for bonsai, but life in general - don't be ashamed to ask.

 

[Hoyonokuma]

Wow.. So..
I tried to dig deeper and got to a point where either i had to entirely uncover the rootball and repot the plant or just give up.

There wasn't really much happening on that first uncovered side, and some straight looking roots on the other, but too few to make a nabari alone.
I went the cautious way, in the end.
Temperatures are unpredictable during fall, here, and didn't want to cause it extreme distress, since I'm going ro repot anyway in spring.

I just covered it all with pine bark and set a layer of coconut fibers between the original plastic and a bigger ceramic one for isolation.
(I also put 5 cm of the same material on the bottom, as the external one doesn't have draining holes and I'll routinely keep it in check).

@sorce sorry I didn't come up with a solution.. I guess I'll have to layer it at the grafting point.

As each question keeps bringing a second and a third one, I'm wondering:
2. Is working on the nabari the absolute priority?
3. In case I go that way, would layering force me wait one more season before I can heavy prune?
Or can I perform both at once?

 

[sorce]

I'd ask @0soyoung about wether these survive on their own roots, I'm not big on converting.

Someone else will also know better about the pruning, I say go for it. You can prune post or pre layer.

Sorce

 

[0soyoung]

I'm not THE authority on this, but I've never gotten a shishigashira to survive on its own roots despite good adventitious root growth when layering. So, I suspect not.

I know that @Dav4 (who lives in a dramatically different climate than mine) made several layers of his shishigashira and that none survived on their own roots - I'm not recalling if there were other reasons.

I also know that @William N. Valavanis has shishigashira bonsai. If anyone knows for sure whether shishigashira survives or does well on its own roots, it is him (40+ years at this game and in yet another far different climate and lots of time around Japanese bonsai nurseries, AFAIK).

 

[Dav4]

I'm not THE authority on this, but I've never gotten a shishigashira to survive on its own roots despite good adventitious root growth when layering. So, I suspect not.

I know that @Dav4 (who lives in a dramatically different climate than mine) made several layers of his shishigashira and that none survived on their own roots - I'm not recalling if there were other reasons.

I also know that @William N. Valavanis has shishigashira bonsai. If anyone knows for sure whether shishigashira survives or does well on its own roots, it is him (40+ years at this game and in yet another far different climate and lots of time around Japanese bonsai nurseries, AFAIK).

I believe I was too aggressive working the roots- basically untangling the roots from the sphagnum media less then 6 months after the layer was separated from the parent tree. A spring time pathogen like Pseudomonas could have played a role, as I've lost several other dwarf palmatums in subsequent years post early spring root work. All of these dwarf cultivars should grow just fine on their own roots if managed properly.

 

[Hoyonokuma]

Thanks everybody for the infos.
I wasn't aware Mr Valavanis was on this forum, too.. Truly amazing.

Back on this specific tree, I guess we'll see again when it's time to repot.
I'll be reposting some bare root pics and will go on from there.

 

[clem]

I'm not THE authority on this, but I've never gotten a shishigashira to survive on its own roots despite good adventitious root growth when layering. So, I suspect not.

I buy palmatums from a nursery who's owner sell only cultivars on their own roots (from cutting). He produces shishigashira and 30 other palmatum cultivar from cuttings since 20 years at least, so i think if the shishigashira cultivar wasn't able to survive on his own roots, he would have stopped to produce it.

The tree on the pic (green arrow) looks pretty much like an old & tall shishigashira (all trees are from cuttings) ->

 

[JonW]

I've seen shishigashira on it's own roots (if I recall, there were a few on sale on facebook recently).

In terms of pruning while air layering, auxin produced in the apical tips of the shoots (green growth) travels down the phloem to the roots and encourages root growth. Cutting the apical buds removes the auxin, which would limit root growth. So when air or ground layering, you should develop new roots faster by not pruning. However, you can also leave the layer longer, even a second season.

I assume trees like shishi and kotohime produce a good bit of auxin relatively because they tend to be very apically dominant and supposedly root / air layer easily.

However, I'm no expert in this either.

 

[Hoyonokuma]

@JonW thanks for the comment.
Absolutely spot on.

Now comes another question tho.. If root pruning stimulates the formation of new feeding roots, what's with the combo root pruning and layering (of course talking spring time) ?
Should the growth of the new root system take off at an improved rate, too?

 

[JonW]

@JonW thanks for the comment.
Absolutely spot on.

Now comes another question tho.. If root pruning stimulates the formation of new feeding roots, what's with the combo root pruning and layering (of course talking spring time) ?
Should the growth of the new root system take off at an improved rate, too?

I think that's a good question and maybe less straight forward. If root bound and you do moderate root work, then put the tree in a big pot, I'd think it would help. If not root bound or if you hack it a lot of roots and use a smaller pot, I think you'd slow the layer.

Root tips produce cytokinin which goes up the xylem encouraging green growth up top. The green growth produces energy and auxin for root growth including in the layer

 

[Canada Bonsai]

If anyone knows for sure whether shishigashira survives or does well on its own roots

- I have several 3-year-old shishigashira air layers that are growing well, and i would say they are as vigorous as my grafted parent plants.

- Air layering is the method of propagation recommended by Meriggioli for shishigashira

- The trunk of older shishigashira has unique striations and, thanks to that, I think it is often easier to tell whether older specimens in Japan are grafted or not. At least that's how i'm performing my forensic analysis. I might be completely wrong about this! It's pure speculation and just something i've noticed while studying development procedures.

I think I have spotted in older specimens from Japan all 3 variations we would expect:

1 - shishigashira grafted onto non-shishigashira roots
2 - shishigashira on its own roots
3 - shishigashira on its own roots, with non-shishigashira root grafts

The attached pictures show, i think, all 3 variations in that order.

(All pictures stolen from the web I've lost track of where they all came from).

i'm also curious about what @William N. Valavanis thinks! I know he and Harvey Carapella have older specimens that are grafted, but I don't know if he has experience with non-grafted specimens.

 

[keri-wms]

I took a Shishigashira air layer two years ago, the roots rotted during their first (very wet, UK) winter but regrew after being treated as a big cutting from late spring. Still alive but slow, I’ll keep it out of the rain this winter!!!

 

[Pitoon]

I'd ask @0soyoung about wether these survive on their own roots, I'm not big on converting.

Someone else will also know better about the pruning, I say go for it. You can prune post or pre layer.

Sorce

I have some air layers of shishigashira (pics taken 28OCT20)

But I must admit if I were to rate the process of air layering shishigashira on a scale of 1-10 (1 = easiest & 10 = hardest) I would rate shishigashira around 7-8. They are not really an easy JM to air layer. The branches are extremely brittle and seem to die back more easily than other JM. Also if you are successful doing the girdle you have to be extremely cautious as a little bump can make the branch snap at the gridle. I think using a small pot filled with substrate could help verse wrapping the branch with sphagnum moss and plastic (there's to much hands on = risky to break the branch), but then you have to secure the pot somehow and the branches again are very brittle.

Just my opinion from doing a air layers.