Shohin Chinese Elm

[VAFisher]

I decided that I was going to start documenting my trees, so here is thread number 3. I bought this Elm last summer from an online retailer. It looked like this at the time:




I cut almost everything off of it when I got it and it responded by budding all over the place. I grew the new main branches last summer. This little tree started budding out back in late February so I transplanted it into its new pot and did the in/out shuffle with it for a while. I don't know why it started so early but I think I'm safe now. Now I'm working on thickening the first branch and developing ramification.

 

[benw3790]

Nice! Now the fun Begins! are you just going to let that first branch grow un restricted? I have a lot of trees that are at this stage of development. They are definately fun to work with at this stage. I like this elmand I think it will make a nice tree now. Good nebaRi.

 

[sorce]

I'm going to enjoy watching this one!

Nice restart. Real nice. Pot too!
Sorce

 

[Shorty54]

Wow....I love the look you're going for! It's going to be amazing when it is fuller!

 

[Eric Group]

I can see a bright future for this one. Simple design, nice and clean! Develop some ramification and you are good too! Nice job cleaning up what was a pretty ugly tree!

 

[edprocoat]

Yes nice Job ! And I love the pot as well.

ed

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

To me, the original image, tightened up a bit makes a very convincing natural look.
The current look is flat and ladder-like. This is a case where following the "rules" leads to a forced appearance.

 

[Oliver Muscio]

Brian, I must say I am not in love with your virtual, either (a bit too flat-topped and wide for my taste--but that is a matter of taste.) However, I agree with you that the tree needs something more, and, as you say, has a ladder-like appearance. I think that is because, in addition to following the numbers, it just doesn't have enough main branches and they are too far appart. It's basically left-right-back, and then apex.
Perhaps with further ramification to fill in it will look better. Be sure to hold back that first right branch, and let the first left branch grow out so it can catch up in girth. Right now it is a bit thin compared to the branch on the right. I hope I am not coming across as too negative; I think it can be a nice tree eventually.
Oliver

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

It was more an illustration than a final canopy.
Looking ahead a few years, once it has further ramification and time to fill in, which is a more convincing look for an elm tree? To me, it's more like the one in the right.

 

[VAFisher]

Thanks for the honest and thoughtful feedback. For a novice like me it's very helpful, and eye-opening, to get this kind of input on my work - especially when it comes from those who have obviously mastered the craft. I definitely didn't intend to present this tree as a finished product, but I'm generally happy with the direction it's going. I mentioned the too thin left branch already and that's definitely a priority. I also hope that as that branch develops, it helps to fill in that open area on the left side. I am hoping for a bud at the area marked by the blue arrow to grow another left branch and there is already a bud developing at the area marked by the yellow arrow that I am going to try to make into another right branch. Maybe that will help the ladder-like appearance.



Thanks again for the feedback.

 

[VAFisher]

Thought I would post an update of this little guy. It did ok this year I think. Shortly after this thread was created it got what I think was black spot. That took a while to get cured but it finally came through and grew well after that. I also slip potted it into this slightly deeper pot because I thought the tiny pot was causing issues too. The lower left branch caught up a little bit but still needs to thicken more. I did not manage to get anything to pop at the needed spots for new branches but I started growing a long shoot from the back of the tree that I'm going to attempt to graft this spring. You can see it wired into position in the pic below. If that one is successful I'll do a second one farther up the tree on the right (where the yellow arrow is above).

 

[markyscott]

Thought I would post an update of this little guy. It did ok this year I think. Shortly after this thread was created it got what I think was black spot. That took a while to get cured but it finally came through and grew well after that. I also slip potted it into this slightly deeper pot because I thought the tiny pot was causing issues too. The lower left branch caught up a little bit but still needs to thicken more. I did not manage to get anything to pop at the needed spots for new branches but I started growing a long shoot from the back of the tree that I'm going to attempt to graft this spring. You can see it wired into position in the pic below. If that one is successful I'll do a second one farther up the tree on the right (where the yellow arrow is above).

Hi VAFisher. Grafting is a good solution for placing additional branches where they are needed, although I can't say I've ever had to graft onto a Chinese elm - they seem to push buds everywhere. Is the tree healthy? You seem to indicate that it may not have had a good year last year.

In terms of the styling, and other than adding branches, what are some problem areas you see that you would like to address? If this was mine, the main attraction would be the trunk line - it has a nice taper from bottom to top. I do see some issues that would bug me, but I wonder what you see?

I like to make lists for my trees - once I have the issues I'd like to fix in mind, I can start to make a plan for how to work on them. The good news is that this is an elm, so anything we decide will not take too long.

Scott

 

[VAFisher]

Well, one thing that's much more noticeable now that the leaves are gone is that the branches themselves don't have much taper. So, I guess my list would be:

1. Additional branches at the areas marked with arrows either through grafting or hoping something pops this spring.
2. Getting some additional girth in the lowest left branch to catch up with the right branch.
3. Cutting back those branches hard to get some taper in them.
4. Develop ramification.

One thought I had was that maybe I'm more likely to get some additional budding on the trunk if I cut the existing branches back hard first. Maybe let the low left branch run for a while and cut the other branches back to within a half inch of the trunk? Am I likely to get something to pop that way? What would you do?

 

[markyscott]

Well, one thing that's much more noticeable now that the leaves are gone is that the branches themselves don't have much taper. So, I guess my list would be:

1. Additional branches at the areas marked with arrows either through grafting or hoping something pops this spring.
2. Getting some additional girth in the lowest left branch to catch up with the right branch.
3. Cutting back those branches hard to get some taper in them.
4. Develop ramification.

One thought I had was that maybe I'm more likely to get some additional budding on the trunk if I cut the existing branches back hard first. Maybe let the low left branch run for a while and cut the other branches back to within a half inch of the trunk? Am I likely to get something to pop that way? What would you do?

Let's agree on the list first, and then we can think of a plan together. I see some of the same things you do, but let me add a couple of items that caught my eye. In order of the priority in which I would address them, the issues I see are:

1. The nebari could stand some improvement. Right now it's a continuation of the trunk line straight into the soil. No basal flare. The trunk would be much improved it it had one.
2. As Brian said, the primary branch placement makes the tree seem "flat". That's partly because there are no branches coming off the front of the trunk and the two primary branches are placed 180 degrees from each other and exactly perpendicular to the front.
3. The second branch is much thicker than the first
4. Both the first branch, the second branch, and the new continuation of the trunk line are pretty straight and taperless with no movement in them.
5. Ramification

Is it healthy?

Scott

 

[VAFisher]

Let's agree on the list first, and then we can think of a plan together. I see some of the same things you do, but let me add a couple of items that caught my eye. In order of the priority in which I would address them, the issues I see are:

1. The nebari could stand some improvement. Right now it's a continuation of the trunk line straight into the soil. No basal flare. The trunk would be much improved it it had one.
2. As Brian said, the primary branch placement makes the tree seem "flat". That's partly because there are no branches coming off the front of the trunk and the two primary branches are placed 180 degrees from each other and exactly perpendicular to the front.
3. The second branch is much thicker than the first
4. Both the first branch, the second branch, and the new continuation of the trunk line are pretty straight and taperless with no movement in them.
5. Ramification

Is it healthy?

Scott

I believe the tree is very healthy now. I noted above that I had what I think was black spot that slowed things down during the past growing season. I finally got it under control with repeated applications of copper. After that it seemed to be very healthy. The point about the nebari surprises me a little. I guess I thought it was pretty decent - although there is always room for improvement. So let's assume this is the list:

1. Improve nebari
2. Additional branches in the right places to improve the ladder-like appearance
3. Thicken lowest left branch
4. Taper and movement in all branches and the continuation of the trunk
5. Ramification.

I would be interested in hearing what you would do and in what order. Thanks for the help.

 

[markyscott]

I believe the tree is very healthy now. I noted above that I had what I think was black spot that slowed things down during the past growing season. I finally got it under control with repeated applications of copper. After that it seemed to be very healthy. The point about the nebari surprises me a little. I guess I thought it was pretty decent - although there is always room for improvement. So let's assume this is the list:

1. Improve nebari
2. Additional branches in the right places to improve the ladder-like appearance
3. Thicken lowest left branch
4. Taper and movement in all branches and the continuation of the trunk
5. Ramification.

I would be interested in hearing what you would do and in what order. Thanks for the help.

One more question - how much scarring is in this area?



Are the blackened areas wounds that we need to worry about healing?

Scott

 

[coh]

I kind of like the direction this tree is going. The straight segments on the branches don't really bother me, as I see lots of trees in "nature" that have straight trunks and straight branches (I'm looking at one outside my window right now). I do agree that you'll need to work to develop taper in the branches and increase the girth of the lowest branch.

Also think you'll need more branches on the trunk, including some that come out toward the front in the middle/upper part of the tree...maybe around/just above where you have the wire wrapped around the trunk. Also will need to allow some sacrifice growth to ease the abrupt trunk thickness change in the upper third.

That area of black bark right in the middle of the lower trunk does concern me, is that healthy?

Chris

 

[VAFisher]

One more question - how much scarring is in this area?

View attachment 90407

Are the blackened areas wounds that we need to worry about healing?

Scott

There is a pretty good size wound there where I pruned off the original branches - which is right where I need a new branch.

 

[VAFisher]

I kind of like the direction this tree is going. The straight segments on the branches don't really bother me, as I see lots of trees in "nature" that have straight trunks and straight branches (I'm looking at one outside my window right now). I do agree that you'll need to work to develop taper in the branches and increase the girth of the lowest branch.

Also think you'll need more branches on the trunk, including some that come out toward the front in the middle/upper part of the tree...maybe around/just above where you have the wire wrapped around the trunk. Also will need to allow some sacrifice growth to ease the abrupt trunk thickness change in the upper third.


That area of black bark right in the middle of the lower trunk does concern me, is that healthy?

Chris

The black color is from old cut paste. I use the green toothpaste tube stuff. For some reason it dried up black on this tree and isn't coming off - it's been there since summer of 2014. The areas are not soft or rotting or anything like that, so I believe they are healthy.
My original idea for grafting a branch at the area is indeed right above where the wire is wrapped around the trunk and to come off at an angle towards the front - about 45 degrees from the perpendicular lower left branch.

 

[M. Frary]

cut paste

I'll bet that's the reason there is no branch there. Elms don't really need cut paste. They heal fast.
Cut it back hard and if it's healthy it will bud all over. Toss the paste.