Eric Group
Masterpiece
That is the one, I have seen it posted many places. Thanks for posting it, I was on a plane coming back from NYC and driving home most of today... Fun place to visit, but I could never live there!
Shohin Jap Maple
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That is the one, I have seen it posted many places. Thanks for posting it, I was on a plane coming back from NYC and driving home most of today... Fun place to visit, but I could never live there!
small trees
Chumono
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That does make a lot of sense. It will take a little time to read through the article a few more times but I think it's smart and pretty intuitive.
Beng
Omono
Cutting it back to that point is a real bad idea.... sorry but it is. People read chop this and chop that on different forums but sometimes it just isn't a good idea. In fact in this case the idea could be worse then the idea posted in another thread about using styrafoam as a substrate... This maple has nice taper already for it's size, it just needs lots of ramification work, a better pot and a bit of a tilt. Chopping it that low would RUIN this tree.
Ben
Ben
ArborealGod
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Upon further inspection, I find your take to be correct...This IS a smaller tree and lopping off the current apex would probably set this thing back a few years ATLEAST (if it were to stay pot grown, that is)....With that said, I would keep bottom growth in check and let the top grow out some to improve taper and over all balance...After a season of growth or so, I think refinement is a real option....
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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In retrospect, Ben is probably right about not chopping that low, though I don't think the tree would be ruined if you did it. You'd have to build a new apex from there, it would take a bit of time, but it could have better shape and taper if you did it right. I still think the apex is too tall and doesn't have enough taper for my tastes...a shorter tree is generally a more powerful tree while a taller, thinner tree is more feminine. You need to decide what you want this tree to say. By the way, there's nothing wrong with doing hardly anything to this tree other then watering it while studying the options for a while. Have fun.
small trees
Chumono
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I still welcome discussion and ideas in all of my threads. There's no harm at looking at things from several different angles; it doesn't mean you have to commit to it. I agree with the bit below though. I think that it wouldn't ruin the tree, more like set it back a few years, but I like the silhouette as it stands now.
I agree on the last bit. I think that I will most likely be leaving it alone for now other than a repot, but the image could still be improved. Like you said, it will be determined by the feeling that i decide the tree should convey.
Beng
Omono
I think this tree just needs to grow into its current shape. With a little work it could be very nice. I think you could nip a little bit off the top I just thought the proposed red line was much too low and would mean many years to get it back to the point it's at now and the point it's at now is a very nice starting point. I think you have plenty to work with, It could use a graft here or there and definitely lots of ramification work but its a great little tree. In fact this little tree almost ended up in my collection you just beat me to the punch with your pot trade!
If you decide you don't like it ill trade you a pot for it.
If you decide you don't like it ill trade you a pot for it.
small trees
Chumono
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I think this tree just needs to grow into its current shape. With a little work it could be very nice. I think you could nip a little bit off the top I just thought the proposed red line was much too low and would mean many years to get it back to the point it's at now and the point it's at now is a very nice starting point. I think you have plenty to work with, It could use a graft here or there and definitely lots of ramification work but its a great little tree. In fact this little tree almost ended up in my collection you just beat me to the punch with your pot trade!
If you decide you don't like it ill trade you a pot for it.
Thanks for the kind words. I did it as a favor because I saw how much the guy wanted the pot, and I always like to help out if I can. He sent me a few pictures of trees and this is the one I ended up with.
He also sent me an accent pot by Erin pottery but as I don't have any accent plants, I don't really know what to do with it. Guess I'll start collecting!Even if I don't make any cuts at all, I like to get differing opinions from everyone as a way to try to evaluate my vision and to improve my ability to see future shape.
I'm going to look at it for a few more days and decide if I want to change anything. I'll be doing mostly ramification work I imagine.
I will keep in mind the trade; I'll be needing a larger pot before too long and if you're still interested I may consider trading the tree.
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Neli
Omono
If you are not going to chop the apex little bit, wire it while still soft to give it some movement. I like this tree a lot.
catfish chapstick
Chumono
I like the tree and I wouldn't chop it (not anytime soon anyway)
I agree with the ethic of it looking better as a soft, feminine, delicate image.
I agree with the ethic of it looking better as a soft, feminine, delicate image.
Beng
Omono
Thanks for the kind words. I did it as a favor because I saw how much the guy wanted the pot, and I always like to help out if I can. He sent me a few pictures of trees and this is the one I ended up with.
Even if I don't make any cuts at all, I like to get differing opinions from everyone as a way to try to evaluate my vision and to improve my ability to see future shape.
I'm going to look at it for a few more days and decide if I want to change anything. I'll be doing mostly ramification work I imagine.
I will keep in mind the trade; I'll be needing a larger pot before too long and if you're still interested I may consider trading the tree.
Sounds good let me know.
I have some unique pots.
Neli
Omono
Thank You.
One more thing...I would not hedge any of my trees. I think that method is for people with too many trees. Use the principle of hedging...grow the shoot a lot before cutting back, so that you have healthy tree, but cut back to 1-2 internodes in the development stage and dont hedge if you want a better tree. Just omit the hedging part from the method...and substitute it for cutting each branch carefully back. I have seen too many disadvantages with this method to promote it.
Try to heal the scars...grind/carve them if they are not smooth, cover with cutpaste...regular wounding of the edge of the cambium will help speed healing. I like to use play dough Plasticine in this type of cases...and fill with glue/or silicon if it has holes.
One more thing...I would not hedge any of my trees. I think that method is for people with too many trees. Use the principle of hedging...grow the shoot a lot before cutting back, so that you have healthy tree, but cut back to 1-2 internodes in the development stage and dont hedge if you want a better tree. Just omit the hedging part from the method...and substitute it for cutting each branch carefully back. I have seen too many disadvantages with this method to promote it.
Try to heal the scars...grind/carve them if they are not smooth, cover with cutpaste...regular wounding of the edge of the cambium will help speed healing. I like to use play dough Plasticine in this type of cases...and fill with glue/or silicon if it has holes.
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small trees
Chumono
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I plan on cleaning up the wounds this weekend. As far as the hedge pruning, what disadvantages do you see if you are advocating the same method, but with cutting each branch individually? Granted, I would probably cut them individually anyway versus hacking away, but I'm curious.
Neli
Omono
I have tried it in gardenia...According to Walter it is suitable for any tree at any stage of development
I never said I advocate the hedging method...I said use the principle of the hedging method on which it is based. To promote health in trees.
He does not advocate the pinching after two leaves which is needed at the final stages of development, but again if you do it constantly the health of your tree will suffer.
I have also all the progression pictures of his trees and see how his maple branches developed. I am not particularly impressed, but I am too fussy also.
I had and on a maple you will have many shoots some time from a point. Imagine you let them grow for a year...instead of removing them and channeling growth to the branches you need.
Will not thickening occur at that point?
again...if you know maples they have long internodes...and you want short ones. That means cutting back most of the time to one internode.
At the end of the year when he goes in to fine tune a tree after 3 hedgings...he cuts back...to one internode...so your results for a year are 1 internode.
If your objective is to grow a branch one internode is too little for me...if instead of hedging you went in and cut back to one internode each time...your results will be better.
If you want to fatten a branch, you can grow it and dont need to hedge it soon, and you can attend to it, individually...
Any way I dont see any other advantages apart that is easy and is good for the health of the tree. For me the results are better if you attend to branches individually.
JMHO.
I never said I advocate the hedging method...I said use the principle of the hedging method on which it is based. To promote health in trees.
He does not advocate the pinching after two leaves which is needed at the final stages of development, but again if you do it constantly the health of your tree will suffer.
I have also all the progression pictures of his trees and see how his maple branches developed. I am not particularly impressed, but I am too fussy also.
I had and on a maple you will have many shoots some time from a point. Imagine you let them grow for a year...instead of removing them and channeling growth to the branches you need.
Will not thickening occur at that point?
again...if you know maples they have long internodes...and you want short ones. That means cutting back most of the time to one internode.
At the end of the year when he goes in to fine tune a tree after 3 hedgings...he cuts back...to one internode...so your results for a year are 1 internode.
If your objective is to grow a branch one internode is too little for me...if instead of hedging you went in and cut back to one internode each time...your results will be better.
If you want to fatten a branch, you can grow it and dont need to hedge it soon, and you can attend to it, individually...
Any way I dont see any other advantages apart that is easy and is good for the health of the tree. For me the results are better if you attend to branches individually.
JMHO.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
I have written exhuastivly on hedging maples here and at my blog. There is a technique to hedging and a purpose. Look up some of my wrtitten things on hedging and the trees I have posted of its results and the purpose becomes very clear. It is definately not for every tree in ones collection since hedging can make replicas of ones collection pretty fast, but to obtain the trees with the perfect canopy of ramified branches, one will have to hedge to keep it that way.
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MACH5
Imperial Masterpiece
I agree. I do not generally advocate for this technique unless your trees need lots of development or the bonsai is weak. Although I see some advantages with the hedging method, I do not use it ever in any one tree. I like to treat each part and each branch separately. I let some shoots grow and extend quite a bit before they are cut back. Other branches I pinch the center leaves even way before they fully open. It really depends on what's needed and where. If your maple is not in good health then I leave it all to grow freely and then cut back. With the hedging method you have to be careful that areas don't thicken too much or you'll have to redo that portion of the tree. The method is great in that it promotes health and vigor in trees but caution needs to be exercised with more finished specimens.
Also I am not so sure that the traditional method of taking out the center stem as soon as leaves are visible will necessarily weaken a tree. I have use this more "traditional" method on the entire tree on a number of maples year after year with no problems whatsoever. In fact these maples have typically responded well with back budding. The pic below is an example of it.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
I agree. I do not generally advocate for this technique unless your trees need lots of development or the bonsai is weak. Although I see some advantages with the hedging method, I do not use it ever in any one tree. I like to treat each part and each branch separately. I let some shoots grow and extend quite a bit before they are cut back. Other branches I pinch the center leaves even way before they fully open. It really depends on what's needed and where. If your maple is not in good health then I leave it all to grow freely and then cut back. With the hedging method you have to be careful that areas don't thicken too much or you'll have to redo that portion of the tree. The method is great in that it promotes health and vigor in trees but caution needs to be exercised with more finished specimens.
Also I am not so sure that the traditional method of taking out the center stem as soon as leaves are visible will necessarily weaken a tree. I have use this more "traditional" method on the entire tree on a number of maples year after year with no problems whatsoever. In fact these maples have typically responded well with back budding. The pic below is an example of it.
I think there is some miscommunication going on on what hedging a maple does. There is no doubt that what you have shown is a beautiful tree. It is a beautiful tree with nary any ramification. It is open, light and airy. The photo's I provided are closed tight and dense. Two very different looks and the dense canopy can only be maintained by hedging and cutting out rough material when appropriate. One does not even start hedging a maple until a well ramified set of seconadaries is provided and those have to be achieved thru hedging as well as the primaries. If you look into the canopies it is clear that each layer has been built upon the last hedged layer.
The tree you have shown would not benifit from hedging due to the way the branches have been built. The hedging foundation is not there. To start that technique on that particular tree would make it look very topaiary. A hedged tree has to be started from scratch to build that type of canopy.
Again I think people get caught up on the word itself rather than the nomenclature it represents.
hedge
/hej/
noun
noun: hedge; plural noun: hedges
1.
a fence or boundary formed by closely growing bushes or shrubs.
"she was standing barefoot in a corner of the lawn, trimming the hedge"
2.
limit or qualify (something) by conditions or exceptions.
"experts usually hedge their predictions, just in case"
synonyms:
confine, restrict, limit, hinder, obstruct, impede, constrain, trap
The pertinent parts are highlighted. How you achieve that, or what you call it is up to you. It is a very different technique than bud pinching, and produces a different effect. I do both techniques when necessary to produce the effect I am looking for.
Eric Group
Masterpiece
There is definitely some confusion going on as to what WP meant by hedging. I read exhaustively on Walter's Blog and IBC what you were talking to him about concerning this topic Neli and it seems that there is a simple misunderstanding concerning the tools and method he uses to prune his trees. He says "hedge" when talking about doing the first cut back of the summer, but he is NOT just grabbing the electric trimmers and arbitrarily chopping the trees into a shape! He IS pruning each branch back to create a specific outline for the tree, removing extended growth and that promotes profuse buds and shorter internodes. In the fall he goes back and fine tunes the tree- removing branch tips, removing unwanted branches... The point of his technique is merely to say you let the tree grow, cut it back, let it grow, cut it back... He is not pinching out the growth tips in early Spring on every branch like many people seem to recommend.
It doesn't matter if you do your hedging with large shears and just maul your tree into the mushroom shape you want, or if you go in and finely cut every branch to produce the desired outline. You are splitting hairs and missing the point. The tree will be more vigorous, more healthy and produce more growth, more new buds, more fine ramification using the hedging method (again, whether you finely cut each individual shoot with scissors, or whether you use the sword shears like Walter uses) than it would if you pop off every little growth tip in early Spring, rob the tree of all of it's stored energy and let it struggle through the growing season.
Which way you go may vary depending on the desired result for a specific tree. If you have a well established, ramified masterpiece that is in need of very little development and you just want to keep it in shape- pinching the tips is probably fine! (Though it likely will eventually weaken the tree, and it would take about 24 hours of straight work with tweezers and a magnifying glass to do it on a tree like the ones Smoke posted pics of!) But- like 99.9999% of the trees in America and Europe- most of us have young trees that are in need of more growth and development and his method makes a lot more sense than the standard "pinching" technique so many people have read about and try to apply to even very young trees.
He did NOT develop this method because he was too lazy or had too many trees to prune them properly as you seem to continue to imply. Nor would I say WP really invented it himself- more he discovered it is the superior method by comparing it side by side against similar trees using different methods.
I am not trying to start a fight or say one person's method is the only way and everyone else is wrong... Just that the reasons I see you consistently post for why hedging shouldn't be done make it clear you are kind of missing the point of what it is supposed to accomplish, and in the end you clearly AGREE with the stated goals of the hedging method, just not the term "hedging" or the used of large hedge pruners?
Not trying to disagree with you either M5- yours is a gorgeous tree, no doubt! I am not one to tell you to change anything you are doing, as it is obviously producing some great results! Just saying the word "hedging" seems to be misunderstood by many and I have seen fantastic results from using WP's technique, I know it works for people who are trying to get the best results they can from a Maple- or probably most any Broad Leaf tree.
It doesn't matter if you do your hedging with large shears and just maul your tree into the mushroom shape you want, or if you go in and finely cut every branch to produce the desired outline. You are splitting hairs and missing the point. The tree will be more vigorous, more healthy and produce more growth, more new buds, more fine ramification using the hedging method (again, whether you finely cut each individual shoot with scissors, or whether you use the sword shears like Walter uses) than it would if you pop off every little growth tip in early Spring, rob the tree of all of it's stored energy and let it struggle through the growing season.
Which way you go may vary depending on the desired result for a specific tree. If you have a well established, ramified masterpiece that is in need of very little development and you just want to keep it in shape- pinching the tips is probably fine! (Though it likely will eventually weaken the tree, and it would take about 24 hours of straight work with tweezers and a magnifying glass to do it on a tree like the ones Smoke posted pics of!) But- like 99.9999% of the trees in America and Europe- most of us have young trees that are in need of more growth and development and his method makes a lot more sense than the standard "pinching" technique so many people have read about and try to apply to even very young trees.
He did NOT develop this method because he was too lazy or had too many trees to prune them properly as you seem to continue to imply. Nor would I say WP really invented it himself- more he discovered it is the superior method by comparing it side by side against similar trees using different methods.
I am not trying to start a fight or say one person's method is the only way and everyone else is wrong... Just that the reasons I see you consistently post for why hedging shouldn't be done make it clear you are kind of missing the point of what it is supposed to accomplish, and in the end you clearly AGREE with the stated goals of the hedging method, just not the term "hedging" or the used of large hedge pruners?
Not trying to disagree with you either M5- yours is a gorgeous tree, no doubt! I am not one to tell you to change anything you are doing, as it is obviously producing some great results! Just saying the word "hedging" seems to be misunderstood by many and I have seen fantastic results from using WP's technique, I know it works for people who are trying to get the best results they can from a Maple- or probably most any Broad Leaf tree.
Eric Group
Masterpiece
So, your saying though that you do advocate the same method... Let the tree grow out, cut it back, grow it out, cut it back... I really don't see a big difference there. The norm he was comparing his method to was pinching new buds in the early Spring which is a commonly used and taught method for Maple development. I see your point about winding up with just the one internode at the end of a growing season, but I don't believe WP's directions intend for that to happen at all with most branches. When you fine tune the tree at the end of a growing season, you might have a few branches that need to be cut back to one new internode to keep them in the shape you want or to keep the smallest internodes, but most branches will have two or even three new nodes by the end of the season if the tree is pruned properly.
Now, there is easily room for interpretation errors here as it is a German article being discussed by an American (me) and someone from Africa (you) so, we are lucky to all be even speaking the same language! LOL
I guess I just don't understand what issue you have with this process, and I certainly do not agree with your assessment of his trees' ramification! He has produced some of the best Maples in the world- especially if you just compare his work against other West artists! It is all opinion though, and I tend to like the style of his trees more than the freakishly manicured, unnatural prefect domes on Maples that is so popular in Japan.
