Shohin Jap Maple

Neli

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I have written exhuastivly on hedging maples here and at my blog. There is a technique to hedging and a purpose. Look up some of my wrtitten things on hedging and the trees I have posted of its results and the purpose becomes very clear. It is definately not for every tree in ones collection since hedging can make replicas of ones collection pretty fast, but to obtain the trees with the perfect canopy of ramified branches, one will have to hedge to keep it that way.
I dont believe hedging can make replicas, any more than a careful pruning by following the rules. The random factor is more in play with hedging that with following the "rules", and when fine tuning a tree you can take it in any direction you want.
Maybe you can tell me what the advantages of hedge method are as opposed to normal trimming of individual branches,since I have failed to see them.

I agree. I do not generally advocate for this technique unless your trees need lots of development or the bonsai is weak. Although I see some advantages with the hedging method, I do not use it ever in any one tree. I like to treat each part and each branch separately. I let some shoots grow and extend quite a bit before they are cut back. Other branches I pinch the center leaves even way before they fully open. It really depends on what's needed and where. If your maple is not in good health then I leave it all to grow freely and then cut back. With the hedging method you have to be careful that areas don't thicken too much or you'll have to redo that portion of the tree. The method is great in that it promotes health and vigor in trees but caution needs to be exercised with more finished specimens.
I agree with this 100%

Also I am not so sure that the traditional method of taking out the center stem as soon as leaves are visible will necessarily weaken a tree. I have use this more "traditional" method on the entire tree on a number of maples year after year with no problems whatsoever. In fact these maples have typically responded well with back budding. The pic below is an example of it.
I also do the same pinching when trying to develop branches...I prefer to create few short internodes to which to cut back later before growing a branch freely to fatten that section...I believe you get better results in time faster.


I think there is some miscommunication going on on what hedging a maple does. There is no doubt that what you have shown is a beautiful tree. It is a beautiful tree with nary any ramification. It is open, light and airy. The photo's I provided are closed tight and dense. Two very different looks and the dense canopy can only be maintained by hedging and cutting out rough material when appropriate. One does not even start hedging a maple until a well ramified set of seconadaries is provided and those have to be achieved thru hedging as well as the primaries. If you look into the canopies it is clear that each layer has been built upon the last hedged layer.
Smoke Walter advocates this:
Quote from a prior conversation with him not on IBF.
Question:
is this method used to improve on a developed tree only and not for starting from scratch? Since there is no shape to cut to. Does it mean some kind of shape needs to be developed first? Do we just allow all the shoots to extend and then shape to a bit less than the final shape of the tree...until the actual careful prune which is after two hedge trimmings in this case?
He said start doing this right from the beginning after trunk chop.

I guess I found the answer:
Link : http://walterpallbon...uction-cut.html
After the first cut which was placed as low as possible the tree will grow freely for a vegetation period. The following next cut should be as low as possible again. It is usually of advantage to place it at the opposite side of the first cut. It is also possible to develop young conifers that way as long as one takes care to always leave enough green and buds on what is left after the cut.
It is not absolutely necessary to plan exactly how the design will eventually evolve. One can just cut low and give the tree a chance to grow at random. In the next years the tree is cut like a hedge, just for silhouette, not for structure. Then after a few seasons the tree is dug up and one works it from there and selects the best from the possibilities that have developed.


The tree you have shown would not benifit from hedging due to the way the branches have been built. The hedging foundation is not there. To start that technique on that particular tree would make it look very topaiary. A hedged tree has to be started from scratch to build that type of canopy.

Again I think people get caught up on the word itself rather than the nomenclature it represents.
I dont get caught in the word...I tried to figure out how it affects a tree, and why it is done and if there is a better established method for doing it.


hedge
/hej/
noun
noun: hedge; plural noun: hedges



1.
a fence or boundary formed by closely growing bushes or shrubs.
"she was standing barefoot in a corner of the lawn, trimming the hedge"

2.
limit or qualify (something) by conditions or exceptions.

"experts usually hedge their predictions, just in case"

synonyms:
confine, restrict, limit, hinder, obstruct, impede, constrain, trap

The pertinent parts are highlighted. How you achieve that, or what you call it is up to you. It is a very different technique than bud pinching, and produces a different effect. I do both techniques when necessary to produce the effect I am looking for.
I asked him this question:
I did not mean much different from your method...I was asking can I do the growing part as You suggested but just cut each branch individually instead with shears...and back to a short node, and not to overall shape of the crown?


I repeated the question 3 times.
First time he did not answer me...just posted some pictures of nice maples.
second time he failed to answer again...
Third time he said he does not understand me....????? Really?
And after explaining my question (or problem as he called it) again...He said he is just a simple gardener...and it works...but no answer to my question.
Someone answered me...with PM... at the end that he does not understand how long internodes will not be produced with his method. And that was a professional bonsai grower with good reputation.
I respect him too...but who ever tells me I am wrong has to tell me why I am wrong for me to understand. And he failed to do that.

Now soon after he deleted my post (on his blog)....but suddenly he had a change of mind....and suddenly agreed with me publicly...on IBF...a week or so later...after telling me that it should not be done???? I think he took my post as an argument when it was a question in order to understand things better, but eventually it had an effect on him??????
That you can cut any way you like and not necessarily with hedge pruners... as long as you leave the branch to grow long>




So, your saying though that you do advocate the same method... Let the tree grow out, cut it back, grow it out, cut it back... I really don't see a big difference there.
The difference is there...What I said is cut back to one or two short internode...he said to cut back to overall shape which includes lots of internodes which you will cut off at the end of the year.

The norm he was comparing his method to was pinching new buds in the early Spring which is a commonly used and taught method for Maple development. I see your point about winding up with just the one internode at the end of a growing season, but I don't believe WP's directions intend for that to happen at all with most branches. When you fine tune the tree at the end of a growing season, you might have a few branches that need to be cut back to one new internode to keep them in the shape you want or to keep the smallest internodes, but most branches will have two or even three new nodes by the end of the season if the tree is pruned properly.
I doubt that very much, I think you might have some short internodes...you will have some that you will have to cut to 0, and very few if any with 2-3-4 short internodes to which to cut to. For me the question is do you want a perfect tree or a tree done in an easy way that will develop not necessarily as fast as individually cut branches to short nodes, That is just my humble opinion...and I would like to know how a tree will develop short internodes with this method?

Now, there is easily room for interpretation errors here as it is a German article being discussed by an American (me) and someone from Africa (you) so, we are lucky to all be even speaking the same language! LOL

I guess I just don't understand what issue you have with this process, and I certainly do not agree with your assessment of his trees' ramification! He has produced some of the best Maples in the world- especially if you just compare his work against other West artists!
I agree with you here but remember those maples were not developed with the hedge method...this hedge method was started relatively recently...and in combination with the naturalistic style...do you see the connection between the two?

It is all opinion though, and I tend to like the style of his trees more than the freakishly manicured, unnatural prefect domes on Maples that is so popular in Japan.
This is a matter of taste...and I dont really want to argue.
But I shall post two pictures for you...and if you can tell me that you still dont like the maples developed by Japanese...then I would have not much to say. I would be lost for words.
I new I would open a can of worms..That is why I did not comment on the hedge method, until asked.
First let me make it clear. I love and respect Walter a lot.
The argument we had on IBF was just a continuation of another conversation we had before just two of us. But I must say after our first conversation he corrected some statements he made on IBF. I dont think it was incidental. I do not blame Walter for using the hedge method. Somewhere he mentioned 4000 trees in his collection. If I have 4000 trees I would also hedge.
All I can say is I studied his method and took detailed notes...and there are statements I dont understand and therefor dont agree with. And that has nothing to do with how the maple is cut but so much with where...or if it will look ugly while in development.
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MACH5

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I think there is some miscommunication going on on what hedging a maple does. There is no doubt that what you have shown is a beautiful tree. It is a beautiful tree with nary any ramification. It is open, light and airy. The photo's I provided are closed tight and dense. Two very different looks and the dense canopy can only be maintained by hedging and cutting out rough material when appropriate. One does not even start hedging a maple until a well ramified set of seconadaries is provided and those have to be achieved thru hedging as well as the primaries. If you look into the canopies it is clear that each layer has been built upon the last hedged layer.

The tree you have shown would not benifit from hedging due to the way the branches have been built. The hedging foundation is not there. To start that technique on that particular tree would make it look very topaiary. A hedged tree has to be started from scratch to build that type of canopy.

Again I think people get caught up on the word itself rather than the nomenclature it represents.

hedge
/hej/
noun
noun: hedge; plural noun: hedges



1.
a fence or boundary formed by closely growing bushes or shrubs.
"she was standing barefoot in a corner of the lawn, trimming the hedge"

2.
limit or qualify (something) by conditions or exceptions.

"experts usually hedge their predictions, just in case"

synonyms:
confine, restrict, limit, hinder, obstruct, impede, constrain, trap

The pertinent parts are highlighted. How you achieve that, or what you call it is up to you. It is a very different technique than bud pinching, and produces a different effect. I do both techniques when necessary to produce the effect I am looking for.



Thanks Al. My response is based of my understanding of hedging as described by WP using it on Japanese maples. I have not read yours as of yet. Letting trees grow unchecked and then cutting back is not necessarily the solution for every tree (or even every part of the tree) as it seems to be implied here http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2013/02/refurbishing-japanese-maple-hedge.html.

I am not in any way discrediting Mr. Pall, but I do have to question the practice as a "catchall" or best practice for developing Japanese maple bonsai as opposed to the more common method of bud pinching. I believe there is plenty of room for both. It makes me wonder now whether we are all talking about different hedging methods? My response is based on the above link.
 

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"It doesn't matter if you do your hedging with large shears and just maul your tree into the mushroom shape you want, or if you go in and finely cut every branch to produce the desired outline. You are splitting hairs and missing the point. The tree will be more vigorous, more healthy and produce more growth, more new buds, more fine ramification using the hedging method (again, whether you finely cut each individual shoot with scissors, or whether you use the sword shears like Walter uses) than it would if you pop off every little growth tip in early Spring, rob the tree of all of it's stored energy and let it struggle through the growing season."

Eric Group




Thanks Eric. No problem or argument at all. That's how we all learn. This is where I am a bit lost since this has simply not been my experience. I posted my pic to show that I have been applying the bud pinching method on this tree for more than a decade with no signs of declining health. The tree simply responds by back budding without any difficulty whatsoever. The pic shows the tree in very early spring. By early summer it as a solid mass of leaves so dense I have to leaf prune it to allow the inside to get light and air.
 

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I dont think You understood me. With hedging a tree develops lets say one short internode...and then some long ones. When You hedge it the first and next time...you actually leave some long internodes bellow the cut let it grow and hedge again at the same place, leaving again the long internodes...eventually you go in at the end of the season and fine tune...which means you cut off all the long internodes...how much do you think You are left with...as opposed to growing a branch as long as WP, and cutting it back to 1 internode and growing it again and cutting it back to one internode...what will your results be at the end of the season in each case?
 

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Budding out..pinky finger for reference. The leaves will get larger but it's fun to see them this small. I apologize for the poor lighting; this guy stays with me and my balcony isn't very conducive to pictures so I try to get a neutral wall.
 

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Eric Group

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I dont think You understood me. With hedging a tree develops lets say one short internode...and then some long ones. When You hedge it the first and next time...you actually leave some long internodes bellow the cut let it grow and hedge again at the same place, leaving again the long internodes...eventually you go in at the end of the season and fine tune...which means you cut off all the long internodes...how much do you think You are left with...as opposed to growing a branch as long as WP, and cutting it back to 1 internode and growing it again and cutting it back to one internode...what will your results be at the end of the season in each case?

I understood you, but in my experience it really doesn't result in overly long internodes being left until Fall on most branches. Most branches, your first round of cut back takes you close to the shorter nodes and removes most of the long ones, the tree should respond with 2 branches from each node left on the branches, next cut removes the long shoots back to the first one or two or so nodes- the shorter ones- then it grows out again before Fall... By Fall, if do this right, you could probably get a good branch from one single shoot to six tips. (In a perfect world, of course that hardly ever works out exactly right!) You refine prune in Fall once the leaves come off and Sure, you might wind up with a few branches that got squirrely on you and need to be reigned in, you will have SO MANY new branches and buds to chose from for future branch development... Again- it isn't the only way to do things, not saying it is the best for everyone... Just the way I recenlty started to do it and the way that makes the most sense to me! Comparing the recent development of my Maples to what I saw previously... Well.. I won't be going backwards any time soon!
 

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Budding out..pinky finger for reference. The leaves will get larger but it's fun to see them this small. I apologize for the poor lighting; this guy stays with me and my balcony isn't very conducive to pictures so I try to get a neutral wall.

Looks happy! You gotta love new Maple leaves!
 

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"It doesn't matter if you do your hedging with large shears and just maul your tree into the mushroom shape you want, or if you go in and finely cut every branch to produce the desired outline. You are splitting hairs and missing the point. The tree will be more vigorous, more healthy and produce more growth, more new buds, more fine ramification using the hedging method (again, whether you finely cut each individual shoot with scissors, or whether you use the sword shears like Walter uses) than it would if you pop off every little growth tip in early Spring, rob the tree of all of it's stored energy and let it struggle through the growing season."

Eric Group




Thanks Eric. No problem or argument at all. That's how we all learn. This is where I am a bit lost since this has simply not been my experience. I posted my pic to show that I have been applying the bud pinching method on this tree for more than a decade with no signs of declining health. The tree simply responds by back budding without any difficulty whatsoever. The pic shows the tree in very early spring. By early summer it as a solid mass of leaves so dense I have to leaf prune it to allow the inside to get light and air.

I don't doubt it! You clearly know what you are doing Mach- all of the trees I have seen you post are fine quality and see to be cared for exceptionally well!

I think the tree you posted is a great looking Maple! Have you ever tried anything like the pruning method Walter Pall describes though? Just wondering...

Obviously if you are happy with the results you are getting on this particular tree, you probably don't want to mess with what is CLEARLY a very good thing... Perhaps if you have a couple other Maples you could give it a try? I would be interested to see if you experience similar results to what I have seen/ am seeing. Kicking myself right now that I didn't take pics before bud break of an Acer I am working on! I can post pics now, but it is just a bush of exploding new shoots right now! LOL. Not much you can see from that, except that it is pretty happy right now!
 
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Eric Group

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I dont believe hedging can make replicas, any more than a careful pruning by following the rules. The random factor is more in play with hedging that with following the "rules", and when fine tuning a tree you can take it in any direction you want.
Maybe you can tell me what the advantages of hedge method are as opposed to normal trimming of individual branches,since I have failed to see them.




I asked him this question:
I did not mean much different from your method...I was asking can I do the growing part as You suggested but just cut each branch individually instead with shears...and back to a short node, and not to overall shape of the crown?


I repeated the question 3 times.
First time he did not answer me...just posted some pictures of nice maples.
second time he failed to answer again...
Third time he said he does not understand me....????? Really?
And after explaining my question (or problem as he called it) again...He said he is just a simple gardener...and it works...but no answer to my question.
Someone answered me...with PM... at the end that he does not understand how long internodes will not be produced with his method. And that was a professional bonsai grower with good reputation.
I respect him too...but who ever tells me I am wrong has to tell me why I am wrong for me to understand. And he failed to do that.

Now soon after he deleted my post (on his blog)....but suddenly he had a change of mind....and suddenly agreed with me publicly...on IBF...a week or so later...after telling me that it should not be done???? I think he took my post as an argument when it was a question in order to understand things better, but eventually it had an effect on him??????
That you can cut any way you like and not necessarily with hedge pruners... as long as you leave the branch to grow long>





This is a matter of taste...and I dont really want to argue.
But I shall post two pictures for you...and if you can tell me that you still dont like the maples developed by Japanese...then I would have not much to say. I would be lost for words.
I new I would open a can of worms..That is why I did not comment on the hedge method, until asked.
First let me make it clear. I love and respect Walter a lot.
The argument we had on IBF was just a continuation of another conversation we had before just two of us. But I must say after our first conversation he corrected some statements he made on IBF. I dont think it was incidental. I do not blame Walter for using the hedge method. Somewhere he mentioned 4000 trees in his collection. If I have 4000 trees I would also hedge.
All I can say is I studied his method and took detailed notes...and there are statements I dont understand and therefor dont agree with. And that has nothing to do with how the maple is cut but so much with where...or if it will look ugly while in development.
bild-117.jpg


Here you described the point where I was saying you are splitting hairs and kind of missing the point and in the responses I saw Walter post to you on other forums, I felt he said the same thing- whether you prune with shears or individually prune each branch with scissors is not really going to matter. The meat of the concept is about letting new growth run in the Spring instead of pinching off all the grow tips. I think that was clarified multiple times, but it seems you still were talking about using hedge pruners to prune Maples- even earlier in this thread- and implying it is only a method for saving time which it is not. Whether you use scissors or big old sword shears like Walter, you are missing the point if you think it is all about saving time or- the implication Walter seemed to take offense to- being lazy. It is about the health f the tree and speeding development. Is it quicker to do your pruning with big old sword shears? Certainly! They call that "working smart not working hard"! ;).

As for the pics you posted... It looks like you took an image of a well developed tree from Japan and compared it to a tree that was being rejuvenated from a state of poor health over the time you show the progression images. He states when he bought that tree there were root problems and he was basically starting over with the apex especially... In other words, it doesn't seem a fair comparison to me. Let me find you one of his more developed trees for comparison and you can tell me if the method is valid, OK?
 

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You know I have never seen the kind of growth that is shown in walter palls photo above on my potted maples. I do have a very large potted maple, prob 15 gallon at least that did put on this type of growth. Not sure why but I don't seem to get that huge amount of vertical shoots that he shows. Im guessing it may have a bit to do with my location and our climate. However one would think the extended growing season would only help assist in this growth. My guess is that the heat is just too intense for the tree. I usually keep them in about 4 hours of direct morning sun until we get into the 90s, then I put them in the shade under a large live oak to receive filtered sunlight in the hottest months.
 

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I am with Neli. Hedging is a no-no for me...unless you just want to make a drastic & fast reduction down to close the silhouette you are after and follow with selective "directional" pruning after (which I've done).

I cannot question Walter's results but I just cannot buy into this technique. To each his own? :)

To those who are confusing it with growing it out vs pinching...that is a totally different & separate issue. Hedging is the action done after...either you hedge or you selectively prune. Right or wrong, I selectively prune. :)
 

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You know I have never seen the kind of growth that is shown in walter palls photo above on my potted maples. I do have a very large potted maple, prob 15 gallon at least that did put on this type of growth. Not sure why but I don't seem to get that huge amount of vertical shoots that he shows. Im guessing it may have a bit to do with my location and our climate. However one would think the extended growing season would only help assist in this growth. My guess is that the heat is just too intense for the tree. I usually keep them in about 4 hours of direct morning sun until we get into the 90s, then I put them in the shade under a large live oak to receive filtered sunlight in the hottest months.

Could be the climate. Could also be the amount of fertilizer he uses. If you read his blog, he states that he fertilizes at a rate much higher than the label indicates. I can't remember the exact number (i.e. tblsp/gal) he uses.
 

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You know I have never seen the kind of growth that is shown in walter palls photo above on my potted maples. I do have a very large potted maple, prob 15 gallon at least that did put on this type of growth. Not sure why but I don't seem to get that huge amount of vertical shoots that he shows. Im guessing it may have a bit to do with my location and our climate. However one would think the extended growing season would only help assist in this growth. My guess is that the heat is just too intense for the tree. I usually keep them in about 4 hours of direct morning sun until we get into the 90s, then I put them in the shade under a large live oak to receive filtered sunlight in the hottest months.

Keep them in filtered sunlight not direct, you will both be happier. Up North ALL of our potted Maples stay in indirect and in the few days(2-3 weeks) worst part of Summer sit under 70 percent shade cloth. Try it and thank me after a season passes ;)

Grimmy
 
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Dan W.

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It appears your thread has been highjacked Georgia... lol. It looks like a fun maple to work with to me. I would probably shorten the tree some as well, but maybe not as drastically as some suggested. Have fun with it! :)

Budding out..pinky finger for reference. The leaves will get larger but it's fun to see them this small. I apologize for the poor lighting; this guy stays with me and my balcony isn't very conducive to pictures so I try to get a neutral wall.
 

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Could be the climate. Could also be the amount of fertilizer he uses. If you read his blog, he states that he fertilizes at a rate much higher than the label indicates. I can't remember the exact number (i.e. tblsp/gal) he uses.

Yea, I've seen that he waters extremely heavily and uses a ton of fertilizer. I have tried to water mine more frequently and longer when I do water them
 

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It appears your thread has been highjacked Georgia... lol. It looks like a fun maple to work with to me. I would probably shorten the tree some as well, but maybe not as drastically as some suggested. Have fun with it! :)

Sorry. Yes it does look like a good maple to work with.
 

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Here you described the point where I was saying you are splitting hairs and kind of missing the point and in the responses I saw Walter post to you on other forums, I felt he said the same thing- whether you prune with shears or individually prune each branch with scissors is not really going to matter. The meat of the concept is about letting new growth run in the Spring instead of pinching off all the grow tips. I think that was clarified multiple times, but it seems you still were talking about using hedge pruners to prune Maples- even earlier in this thread- and implying it is only a method for saving time which it is not. Whether you use scissors or big old sword shears like Walter, you are missing the point if you think it is all about saving time or- the implication Walter seemed to take offense to- being lazy. It is about the health f the tree and speeding development. Is it quicker to do your pruning with big old sword shears? Certainly! They call that "working smart not working hard"! ;).

As for the pics you posted... It looks like you took an image of a well developed tree from Japan and compared it to a tree that was being rejuvenated from a state of poor health over the time you show the progression images. He states when he bought that tree there were root problems and he was basically starting over with the apex especially... In other words, it doesn't seem a fair comparison to me. Let me find you one of his more developed trees for comparison and you can tell me if the method is valid, OK?
The thing marked in red he posted after our discussion and in response to it. And that was to clarify that the intention is to improve the health of the tree. I agree with that 100% What I dont agree is cutting the crown to a bit less than the overall intended shape...remember he said you apply this method right from the start of a tree, even after a trunk chop...I just can not imagine where and how you will get short internodes.
For me every technique has its place...pinching in the final stages, growing branches to strengthen a tree from start to end...and cutting to 1 internode if needed while developing branches, and removing shoots that can cause knobs at the same time.. I have no objection to growing branches...
Best will be to show you some pictures of a tree I had and the mess the hedge method created...
Just remember that any shoot within a dense canopy, not getting enough light will have long internodes.
The only reason I posted the Japanese tree was because you insisted that you dont like Japanese trees.
 

Neli

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This was my personal experience with the hedge method for half a season only...and had to abandon it.
 

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Sorry. Yes it does look like a good maple to work with.

It appears your thread has been highjacked Georgia... lol. It looks like a fun maple to work with to me. I would probably shorten the tree some as well, but maybe not as drastically as some suggested. Have fun with it! :)

It's fine; I'm welcoming all this discussion as it's a chance to learn a bit.


edit: Dan, how far would you shorten it?
 
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deadcs

Sapling
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I got this one in a trade and it just arrived. I'm pretty excited about it. I'll post updates on this one as it progresses. Thoughts/comments are welcome.

Not sure why the pictures upload out of order. Pic 3 would be the front. Although I may like pic 2 better. it looks like it was wired with pic 2 as the front.

I believe it is in need of a repot, and it was suggested that I pot it into something shallower. I'm not a pot hoarder like most of you guys, so I will have to find a pot and buy it. If anyone wants to suggest a glaze, it would be appreciated. I do like the dark blue that it is currently in, but I'm not very good at envisioning what it would look like with a pot switched out.
Hi, ¿do you still have this beaty? ¿any updates?
 
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