Shohin JBP

[JoeR]

While I’ve worked with JBP seedlings and other species of pines before, I’ve never actually had a good project JBP. This will be my first real venture into the species, certainly looking forward to learning. I acquired this at the Winter Silhouette show from the Valavanis’ sales table; of which Mrs. Valavanis was manning at the time, who is such an outstanding individual, I really enjoyed talking with her. More than willing to share her wealth of knowledge.

I don’t know it’s age, but it’s just starting to show the beginnings of nice bark already so I’ll take that as a very good sign. As it sits, it has at least two potential fronts; pictured though is only one of them, the other side is too dense to show off. Maybe I’ll have some time to sit down and clean it out for a few pictures later this week.

As far as a plan for development, I’ve not had the tree long enough to create a solid plan yet, although I do have some ideas. Any suggestions are always welcome. I’ll be shuffling through the JBP link thread in the meantime.

 

[Adair M]

Go through it and pull the old needles. The ones that grew in 2017 and before. Then, you’ll be able to see what you’ve got.

 

[JoeR]

Go through it and pull the old needles. The ones that grew in 2017 and before. Then, you’ll be able to see what you’ve got.

I actually considered starting a PM conversation with you concerning the tree. I should have time tomorrow to pull the needles so I’ll post again afterwards, and go from there.

 

[River's Edge]

While I’ve worked with JBP seedlings and other species of pines before, I’ve never actually had a good project JBP. This will be my first real venture into the species, certainly looking forward to learning. I acquired this at the Winter Silhouette show from the Valavanis’ sales table; of which Mrs. Valavanis was manning at the time, who is such an outstanding individual, I really enjoyed talking with her. More than willing to share her wealth of knowledge.

I don’t know it’s age, but it’s just starting to show the beginnings of nice bark already so I’ll take that as a very good sign. As it sits, it has at least two potential fronts; pictured though is only one of them, the other side is too dense to show off. Maybe I’ll have some time to sit down and clean it out for a few pictures later this week.

As far as a plan for development, I’ve not had the tree long enough to create a solid plan yet, although I do have some ideas. Any suggestions are always welcome. I’ll be shuffling through the JBP link thread in the meantime.

Excellent material, i would suggest a two fold approach. Continue to develop and thicken the trunk. And keep up the needle maintenance to ensure the interior growth remains strong. The first step suggested by Adair is the right one and needs to be kept up. It may be worthwhile to allow the rootball to expand while thickening the trunk and then reducing and compacting for Shohin size pot. Others have accomplished this with a colandar within a larger colandar. Promoting fine roots in the inside while allowing root extension to thicken more quickly. As noted below it can also be done with a larger pot and reduce the root ball later. With careful selection a sacrifice apex and or sacrifice branch could also be developed for faster thickening of the trunk and easy camouflage of the resulting scar. Consider changes of location to keep the size down when removing the sacrifice.
My immediate thought was the movement is good if only it was thicker!
The presence of mature bark beginning suggest an age of 7 plus years at this point i suspect. Here is a picture that suggests the approach i am suggesting.
Have to admit i am a sucker for Shohin with a substantial base!

 

[Adair M]

The title says “shohin”, but I’m not sure it will make a good shohin. Yeah, the definition of shohin is a tree less than 8 inches,

But...

JBP shohin usually are displayed on the top of a shohin box stand. Which puts them either at, or above, eye level. So, it’s real important to have really low first branches. I’m talking within one or two inches from the nebari. Because what happens is when viewed on the top of the box stand, you dont want the viewer to be looking up and seeing the underside of branches. If the tree has a four inch trunk before branches start, it’s almost impossible to prevent it.

So, why am I posting all this? It’s important to have a plan on what you want your tree to be. And the final height is very important. And whether to grow it taller, wider, grow for girth, etc all depend upon what you decide will be the future height.

Sometimes a taller, more slender style is better than the heavy chunky style. But until we see what you have, it’s impossible to tell.

 

[LanceMac10]

I'm interested to see your results after a few seasons.

Will probably have the most vigor, prior to being worked/developed, than it will for the next few years, this spring. So have a good plan.
I might leave some older needles that are horizontal, but remove the upper and lower pointing ones. I figure it might give a better chance for a bud to come near some needles.

 

[Adair M]

I'm interested to see your results after a few seasons.

Will probably have the most vigor, prior to being worked/developed, than it will for the next few years, this spring. So have a good plan.
I might leave some older needles that are horizontal, but remove the upper and lower pointing ones. I figure it might give a better chance for a bud to come near some needles.

That method, leaving the side needles, and removing the top and bottom ones, has its place, but I don’t think it’s appropriate for this tree. That method tries to stimulate what I call “needle buds” to pop in between major internodes. You do that when you have long branches with long internodes. And you want to create branches in between the internodes. The OP’s tree appears to have plenty of buds and little branches. Perhaps, too many! So, thinning is what needed. You want strong twigs and branches, not a whole bunch of random buds everywhere.

 

[JoeR]

Excellent material, i would suggest a two fold approach. Continue to develop and thicken the trunk. And keep up the needle maintenance to ensure the interior growth remains strong. The first step suggested by Adair is the right one and needs to be kept up. It may be worthwhile to allow the rootball to expand while thickening the trunk and then reducing and compacting for Shohin size pot. Others have accomplished this with a colandar within a larger colandar. Promoting fine roots in the inside while allowing root extension to thicken more quickly. As noted below it can also be done with a larger pot and reduce the root ball later. With careful selection a sacrifice apex and or sacrifice branch could also be developed for faster thickening of the trunk and easy camouflage of the resulting scar. Consider changes of location to keep the size down when removing the sacrifice.
My immediate thought was the movement is good if only it was thicker!
The presence of mature bark beginning suggest an age of 7 plus years at this point i suspect. Here is a picture that suggests the approach i am suggesting.
Have to admit i am a sucker for Shohin with a substantial base!

Thank you for the input and picture!

I certainly agree, the tree has nice lines but needs some filling in, ie a thicker trunk. I believe that there is a branch in the current “back” of the tree that has been used as a sacrifice, I can either continue using this one or start a new one. I don’t particularly want the upper portion of the tree to be any thicker, as reverse taper may become a problem, but certainly the base/lower half should be grown out more. I agree 7+ years old Is a fair estimate as well.

I’m conflicted on whether I should repot or not. Mrs. Valavanis said it didn’t need repotted in the spring, however transitioning to a colander may be of benefit.

 

[JoeR]

The title says “shohin”, but I’m not sure it will make a good shohin. Yeah, the definition of shohin is a tree less than 8 inches,

But...

JBP shohin usually are displayed on the top of a shohin box stand. Which puts them either at, or above, eye level. So, it’s real important to have really low first branches. I’m talking within one or two inches from the nebari. Because what happens is when viewed on the top of the box stand, you dont want the viewer to be looking up and seeing the underside of branches. If the tree has a four inch trunk before branches start, it’s almost impossible to prevent it.

So, why am I posting all this? It’s important to have a plan on what you want your tree to be. And the final height is very important. And whether to grow it taller, wider, grow for girth, etc all depend upon what you decide will be the future height.

Sometimes a taller, more slender style is better than the heavy chunky style. But until we see what you have, it’s impossible to tell.

I’ve never been too particular about naming the different sizes/classes of bonsai, or really the whole cultural/Japanese aspect of bonsai. It’s not that I don’t care, I simply don’t know, and haven’t paid attention to it. With that said, what would you suggest it should be called instead?

 

[JoeR]

That method, leaving the side needles, and removing the top and bottom ones, has its place, but I don’t think it’s appropriate for this tree. That method tries to stimulate what I call “needle buds” to pop in between major internodes. You do that when you have long branches with long internodes. And you want to create branches in between the internodes. The OP’s tree appears to have plenty of buds and little branches. Perhaps, too many! So, thinning is what needed. You want strong twigs and branches, not a whole bunch of random buds everywhere.

I also meant to ask.. how do I know which needles are “2017” needles? I was reading the BT post on needle pulling, and I understand the process of it, just not how “far” to go with it. I never realized how little I knew about pines till I had one! So forgive my ignorance..

I really need to buy Boon’s DVD series on JBP.. I‘ve been told it is the go-to resource. At the moment I’ve been going through the BonsaiTonight resource thread.
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/bonsai-tonight-japanese-red-and-black-pine-articles.16300/

 

[Adair M]

When you look at a JBP branch, obviously the needles at the tips are the youngest. This year’s.

Pines send out candles, that extend, then they form needles along the sides and tip ends of the candle. At the very tip end, they form a bud for next year’s candle(s).

So, again looking at the very youngest, then moving back towards the trunk, you will see a place where the youngest needles stop, there usually a slight swell, then going back towards the trunk, there might be more needles. If there are, they’re usually darker than the current year’s. And may have a bit of yellow at the very tip. These would be the 2017 needles.

Continuing on towards the trunk, you may find another swelled place and even more needles. Those would be 2016 needles. They would be looking pretty ragged, with some turning yellow, brown, have broken places.

Each of the little swelling places are the bud joints, where whorles of branches may be. There are lots of dormant buds at those places.

The buds that come from the joints are better than the buds that come from between the needles. They’re stronger.

So, if you go need back budding, thinning old needles exposes these old bud unions to the sun which can stimulate them to grow buds and then make new twigs.

 

[River's Edge]

I also meant to ask.. how do I know which needles are “2017” needles? I was reading the BT post on needle pulling, and I understand the process of it, just not how “far” to go with it. I never realized how little I knew about pines till I had one! So forgive my ignorance..

I really need to buy Boon’s DVD series on JBP.. I‘ve been told it is the go-to resource. At the moment I’ve been going through the BonsaiTonight resource thread.
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/bonsai-tonight-japanese-red-and-black-pine-articles.16300/

The DVD series is very good, and the Bonsai Tonight articles are excellent as well. Going over them several times will reveal additional understanding over time. One rarely picks up all the details the first time around. Here is where i have to emphasize that hands on learning with an experienced person as a guide is the best method. Guided practice with someone to correct as you go is very valuable. Seek out the local club pine expert or nearby teacher for some hands on. The difference in the speed of progress and technique development is substantial.
If the tree is not in need of repotting then the next question is would a purposeful repot to meet development goals be in order? That is best answered by the condition of the roots. Whenever i start with a new tree, one of my first steps is to become familiar with the condition of the rootball in order to properly plan the trees development.
Your tree appears to have an excellent start, there is no hurry to push, rather more to be gained by careful planning and execution of the plan.

 

[Adair M]

I wrote all that about “shohin JBP” because “shohin” means more than just “small tree”. Lots of people want to call a seedling a “shohin” because it’s under 8 inches. It’s not a shohin. It’s just a seedling.

So, when you said you had a “shohin JBP”, that indicates you expect to have a tree suitable for showing on a shohin display box. All I was doing was telling you what the word “shohin” implies.

 

[JoeR]

The DVD series is very good, and the Bonsai Tonight articles are excellent as well. Going over them several times will reveal additional understanding over time. One rarely picks up all the details the first time around. Here is where i have to emphasize that hands on learning with an experienced person as a guide is the best method. Guided practice with someone to correct as you go is very valuable. Seek out the local club pine expert or nearby teacher for some hands on. The difference in the speed of progress and technique development is substantial.
If the tree is not in need of repotting then the next question is would a purposeful repot to meet development goals be in order? That is best answered by the condition of the roots. Whenever i start with a new tree, one of my first steps is to become familiar with the condition of the rootball in order to properly plan the trees development.
Your tree appears to have an excellent start, there is no hurry to push, rather more to be gained by careful planning and execution of the plan.

I agree there is no substitute for hands on learning. The DVD series would however provide me with a good foundation I believe. I’m going to try to find a used set that someone is just looking to pass on.

I glanced at the roots already, they looked good with visible mycorrhizae. I’m going to slide the tree out of its pot and examine the roots again, maybe post a picture too. It drains well still, seems to be mostly potting soil and sand. Will probably skip any sort of repot this year. I’ll know for sure when I get to spend some time with the tree

 

[JoeR]

When you look at a JBP branch, obviously the needles at the tips are the youngest. This year’s.

Pines send out candles, that extend, then they form needles along the sides and tip ends of the candle. At the very tip end, they form a bud for next year’s candle(s).

So, again looking at the very youngest, then moving back towards the trunk, you will see a place where the youngest needles stop, there usually a slight swell, then going back towards the trunk, there might be more needles. If there are, they’re usually darker than the current year’s. And may have a bit of yellow at the very tip. These would be the 2017 needles.

Continuing on towards the trunk, you may find another swelled place and even more needles. Those would be 2016 needles. They would be looking pretty ragged, with some turning yellow, brown, have broken places.

Each of the little swelling places are the bud joints, where whorles of branches may be. There are lots of dormant buds at those places.

The buds that come from the joints are better than the buds that come from between the needles. They’re stronger.

So, if you go need back budding, thinning old needles exposes these old bud unions to the sun which can stimulate them to grow buds and then make new twigs.

Makes sense, thanks again for a nice concise explanation. You remove the needle sheaths as well, correct? I was reading the blog I mentioned and he shows pulling the entire thing off, sheath and needles, I assume you suggest the same? I had previously though it was best to leave the sheaths in tact and just pull the needles out, not sure why I thought that.

 

[Adair M]

The DVD series is very good, and the Bonsai Tonight articles are excellent as well. Going over them several times will reveal additional understanding over time. One rarely picks up all the details the first time around. Here is where i have to emphasize that hands on learning with an experienced person as a guide is the best method. Guided practice with someone to correct as you go is very valuable. Seek out the local club pine expert or nearby teacher for some hands on. The difference in the speed of progress and technique development is substantial.
If the tree is not in need of repotting then the next question is would a purposeful repot to meet development goals be in order? That is best answered by the condition of the roots. Whenever i start with a new tree, one of my first steps is to become familiar with the condition of the rootball in order to properly plan the trees development.
Your tree appears to have an excellent start, there is no hurry to push, rather more to be gained by careful planning and execution of the plan.

Unless I buy a tree from Boon, or from one of his students, I usually find that the soil mix is less than optimal. Therefore, my usual practice is to repot any new tree into Boon Mix at the earliest opportunity.

The other masters who have also trained in Japan, such as Ryan Neil, Haggeforn, Sherrard, Reel,Tea,etc would also use good soil. I don’t know what Bill uses, it’s probably ok.

Some well known suppliers use what I consider poor soil. Particularly, Brussel’s. I always, always, always repot anything sourced from Brussel’s ASAP. He sells good trees, just uses poor soil.

My main point: repotting into good soil is ensuring that I won’t have any “root issues” in the future.

 

[JoeR]

I wrote all that about “shohin JBP” because “shohin” means more than just “small tree”. Lots of people want to call a seedling a “shohin” because it’s under 8 inches. It’s not a shohin. It’s just a seedling.

So, when you said you had a “shohin JBP”, that indicates you expect to have a tree suitable for showing on a shohin display box. All I was doing was telling you what the word “shohin” implies.

I very clearly was misinformed about that, I previously believed it was solely a classification based on size. Good to know

 

[Adair M]

Makes sense, thanks again for a nice concise explanation. You remove the needle sheaths as well, correct? I was reading the blog I mentioned and he shows pulling the entire thing off, sheath and needles, I assume you suggest the same? I had previously though it was best to leave the sheaths in tact and just pull the needles out, not sure why I thought that.

Yes, remove the sheath. One of the reasons for pulling needles is to make it easier to wire. When laying down wire, it’s easier to make a nice neat job of it when there’s no sheaths.

If you leave them on, they dry up and fall off in about two weeks. So if you miss a few when pulling needles, it’s no big deal. But the tree looks a lot tidier all cleaned up.

 

[Adair M]

I very clearly was misinformed about that, I previously believed it was solely a classification based on size. Good to know

There’s a guy in our local club who tries to show itty bitty rooted cuttings as “shohin”. Ugh!

 

[River's Edge]

Unless I buy a tree from Boon, or from one of his students, I usually find that the soil mix is less than optimal. Therefore, my usual practice is to repot any new tree into Boon Mix at the earliest opportunity.

The other masters who have also trained in Japan, such as Ryan Neil, Haggeforn, Sherrard, Reel,Tea,etc would also use good soil. I don’t know what Bill uses, it’s probably ok.

Some well known suppliers use what I consider poor soil. Particularly, Brussel’s. I always, always, always repot anything sourced from Brussel’s ASAP. He sells good trees, just uses poor soil.

My main point: repotting into good soil is ensuring that I won’t have any “root issues” in the future.

Agreed, step one for me is check soil, rootball and deal with it first if needed. Bonsai fundamentals. Very important in my climate with humidity and winter rainfall amounts in particular.