Shohin JBP

[coh]

Some well known suppliers use what I consider poor soil. Particularly, Brussel’s. I always, always, always repot anything sourced from Brussel’s ASAP.

Brussels soil....shudder! Bad stuff.

The tree from Bill may or may not have ever been repotted by Bill (depends on how long he had it) so while he uses good soil, it may or may not have good soil in the pot. Or, depending on who repotted it and how, there could be good soil surrounding crappy Brussels soil in the center. Lots of possibilities. Tree looks pretty healthy and vigorous, though.

Interesting tree, I'm looking forward to seeing that structure when it is thinned/cleaned a bit.

 

[Carol 83]

Brussels soil....shudder! Bad stuff.

The tree from Bill may or may not have ever been repotted by Bill (depends on how long he had it) so while he uses good soil, it may or may not have good soil in the pot. Or, depending on who repotted it and how, there could be good soil surrounding crappy Brussels soil in the center. Lots of possibilities. Tree looks pretty healthy and vigorous, though.

Interesting tree, I'm looking forward to seeing that structure when it is thinned/cleaned a bit.

I found out the hard way. I have ordered several trees from Brussels, and although the trees were very healthy, the soil was terrible. I almost lost a nice BRT and although alive, it's kind of ruined, because I didn't repot into a better mix soon enough.

 

[Shibui]

Go through it and pull the old needles. The ones that grew in 2017 and before. Then, you’ll be able to see what you’ve got.

This is certainly true of trees that have been regularly decandled but not always the best when the tree has been allowed free growth for one or more previous seasons.. Need to look at each shoot/branch and decide whether there is enough side shoots or buds to make a decent branch. If not then simulating some dormant buds from the older needles is more appropriate.

The buds that come from the joints are better than the buds that come from between the needles. They’re stronger.

This is true but sometimes weaker buds closer to the trunk will be far better than stronger buds way out on the end of a long, bare branch. With trees at this stage of development I find that it is best to work each branch and shoot using appropriate method to achieve the best outcome. When all branches are at a uniform stage blanket application of a single technique can be used.
JBP suffer reverse taper quite quickly where there are multiple shoots from one area so while thinning needles I would also look to remove any redundant branches as first priority.

 

[coh]

This "needle buds are weaker" belief is only really true for a season or two, though - right? It's been my experience that eventually those buds strengthen and become just like any other branch. So if you get a needle bud in a useful place, there's no reason not to keep it. Similarly, it's worth trying to encourage needle buds in areas where you need a branch before you have to resort to grafting. I'm sure someone will tell me if I'm wrong

 

[Adair M]

This "needle buds are weaker" belief is only really true for a season or two, though - right? It's been my experience that eventually those buds strengthen and become just like any other branch. So if you get a needle bud in a useful place, there's no reason not to keep it. Similarly, it's worth trying to encourage needle buds in areas where you need a branch before you have to resort to grafting. I'm sure someone will tell me if I'm wrong

That’s correct, they will eventually become as strong as normal buds.

But once you start decandling regularly, you’ll get short internodes, and backbudding from nodes happens far more often than via needle buds.

For sure, if you get s needle bud in a place where you want one, keep it! It just doesn’t happen often.

 

[Adair M]

This is certainly true of trees that have been regularly decandled but not always the best when the tree has been allowed free growth for one or more previous seasons.. Need to look at each shoot/branch and decide whether there is enough side shoots or buds to make a decent branch. If not then simulating some dormant buds from the older needles is more appropriate.
This is true but sometimes weaker buds closer to the trunk will be far better than stronger buds way out on the end of a long, bare branch. With trees at this stage of development I find that it is best to work each branch and shoot using appropriate method to achieve the best outcome. When all branches are at a uniform stage blanket application of a single technique can be used.
JBP suffer reverse taper quite quickly where there are multiple shoots from one area so while thinning needles I would also look to remove any redundant branches as first priority.

I won’t disagree with you, but from the looks of the OP’s tree, his problem is not a lack of interior buds and shoots, but an over preponderance of them!

 

[JoeR]

I won’t disagree with you, but from the looks of the OP’s tree, his problem is not a lack of interior buds and shoots, but an over preponderance of them!

Agreed, whoever grew out this bonsai sure seems to have known what they were doing to set up a bright future for it. Managed to retain good foliage options

 

[LanceMac10]

Access to good soil components, @JoeR ? Akadama, Lava and Pumice, I feel, is the best mix for JBP. Even here up north.

With an open, airy mix, you can water without fear, JBP seem to like a bit more water than you would think. They'll get all kinds of bushy!
More re-habbing a sickly tree or preparing for a big reduction/re-style, not when your re-fining and going for small needles.

Never enough interior buds or shoots for my tastes.....thems your future keeper branches, I figure!!

 

[Shibui]

I won’t disagree with you, but from the looks of the OP’s tree, his problem is not a lack of interior buds and shoots, but an over preponderance of them!
Click to expand...
Agreed, whoever grew out this bonsai sure seems to have known what they were doing to set up a bright future for it. Managed to retain good foliage options

Absolutely true both times but many of the shoots here are already long without visible buds or side shoots - example
Any of these that are useful as future branching need to be treated different to this IMHO

Go through it and pull the old needles. The ones that grew in 2017 and before. Then, you’ll be able to see what you’ve got.

 

[JoeR]

Access to good soil components, @JoeR ? Akadama, Lava and Pumice, I feel, is the best mix for JBP. Even here up north.

With an open, airy mix, you can water without fear, JBP seem to like a bit more water than you would think. They'll get all kinds of bushy!
More re-habbing a sickly tree or preparing for a big reduction/re-style, not when your re-fining and going for small needles.

Never enough interior buds or shoots for my tastes.....thems your future keeper branches, I figure!!

I need a source for akadama that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg. Seriously, there is absolutely no reason for it to be the price it is. I go through too much soil for it to be economical for a hobbyist at my level. The more I observe this tree the more I think a repot may be in order. Many of the needles are burnt, dry, and fall off with touch- similar to the effects of over fertilizing with an inorganic salt fertilizer. I also believe there may be dry pockets in the soil not getting watered, hence the needles. In any case I cleaned it up some this afternoon.

The “front” and “back” with branches more visible:

 

[JoeR]

The sizeable sacrifice branch, the unhealthy needles I’m concerned about, and are the candles supposed to look like this?

 

[Gustavo Martins]

Some well known suppliers use what I consider poor soil. Particularly, Brussel’s. I always, always, always repot anything sourced from Brussel’s ASAP. He sells good trees, just uses poor soil

The last sentence caught my attention and I was wondering if soil is poor, how can they produce good trees in it? Or are trees produced in some other soil and then stuck in poor soil for selling purposes only?!

 

[Shibui]

The last sentence caught my attention and I was wondering if soil is poor, how can they produce good trees in it? Or are trees produced in some other soil and then stuck in poor soil for selling purposes only?!

It is possible to grow trees in almost anything. Just need to match water, sun and fert to the mix you are using. If they've always used that mix their care will be tailored to it. The trouble only occurs when we take these trees and subject them to a different care regime that does not suit the mix.
Even though I think I have a good mix I encourage customers to repot at the earliest opportunity because I know that my mix won't suit everyone else's climate or care. If you purchase trees from several sources I think it is a good idea to repot so that all your trees are in similar mix - one that you know. Saves a lot of heartache trying to tailor water and fert to every individual tree.

 

[Adair M]

The sizeable sacrifice branch, the unhealthy needles I’m concerned about, and are the candles supposed to look like this?

I see some needlecast fungus. Not unusual with nursery stock. Most likely, there were a couple dozen trees of similiar size and age in similiar containers, all packed in together. And the were watered from overhead. This lead to poor air circulation, and damp conditions, which is ideal for needle cast. Especially since it appears the tree had been decandled in the past, but it does not appear to have had the resulting summer candles reduced to two. All this makes for a dense shrub of a pine. Lots of branches makes for a good little tree to thin, select branches, wire and style. It’s time to do it!

The thinning I recommended will help it be healthier as more air circulation will help the tree fight off needlecast. Removing the old needles that harbor the needlecast is also beneficial. Regular spraying with copper fungicide, and application of Cleary’s 3336 granular fungicide will help, too.

@Shibui, it is impossible to convey a lifetime of JBP knowledge in a single post. And teaching in text over the Internet is limited. My “clean it out” post was meant as a way to get him started. From the look of the tree, it looks like a prolific backbudder, so there should be no fear of removing too many old needles.

It looks like he did a pretty good job for a first timer. At least now he can see what branches he has to work with!

 

[Adair M]

I need a source for akadama that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg. Seriously, there is absolutely no reason for it to be the price it is. I go through too much soil for it to be economical for a hobbyist at my level. The more I observe this tree the more I think a repot may be in order. Many of the needles are burnt, dry, and fall off with touch- similar to the effects of over fertilizing with an inorganic salt fertilizer. I also believe there may be dry pockets in the soil not getting watered, hence the needles. In any case I cleaned it up some this afternoon.

The “front” and “back” with branches more visible:

Akadama is expensive because it’s imported from Japan. It’s cheap in Japan. It’s the shipping that runs the price up.

 

[JoeR]

I see some needlecast fungus. Not unusual with nursery stock. Most likely, there were a couple dozen trees of similiar size and age in similiar containers, all packed in together. And the were watered from overhead. This lead to poor air circulation, and damp conditions, which is ideal for needle cast. Especially since it appears the tree had been decandled in the past, but it does not appear to have had the resulting summer candles reduced to two. All this makes for a dense shrub of a pine. Lots of branches makes for a good little tree to thin, select branches, wire and style. It’s time to do it!

The thinning I recommended will help it be healthier as more air circulation will help the tree fight off needlecast. Removing the old needles that harbor the needlecast is also beneficial. Regular spraying with copper fungicide, and application of Cleary’s 3336 granular fungicide will help, too.

@Shibui, it is impossible to convey a lifetime of JBP knowledge in a single post. And teaching in text over the Internet is limited. My “clean it out” post was meant as a way to get him started. From the look of the tree, it looks like a prolific backbudder, so there should be no fear of removing too many old needles.

It looks like he did a pretty good job for a first timer. At least now he can see what branches he has to work with!

Oh how wonderful, yet another fungus to battle. I’d have to order the Cleary’s, no one around here carries it, but I do have some copper on hand I believe; when is the best time to spray pines? I have a feeling we’re going to have a very wet winter, case in point it’s been raining the past three days. So that needs to be taken care of as soon as it can be done.

You said “it’s time to do it!”, referring to branch selection and styling; how does this relate to timing with a repot? As in, if I feel it’s necessary to repot in a better soil come spring, should this work still be done? I know pines are opposite of junipers in that their energy is stored in their roots, but how that applies to working pines I don’t know.

Last time I purchased akadama I want to say I bought two bags, and each were $30-$40 a piece. 3.5 gallon bags. I realize shipping/importing is a costly procedure, but I’m led to believe that it’s mostly just a massive retail markup for a specialty product.

Interestingly, I just googled akadama and now even Walmart is selling it? With $24 shipping..

 

[Adair M]

Cool!!!

Get s bag and try it out!

 

[coh]

Interestingly, I just googled akadama and now even Walmart is selling it? With $24 shipping..

"Sold and shipped by Superfly Bonsai" so you might want to check with them and see if you can get it cheaper. You can probably get it cheaper via some of the facebook sellers if you're on facebook.

 

[LanceMac10]

I would normally say, "Sure", but can you source pumice and lava in an equal size?

Looks a little too fine for my preference. Seems like the smaller size breaks down a bit too quick in my climate...8 degrees yesterday morning....50 tomorrow!?!?

 

[Adair M]

It’s not an “insult” to thin and pull needles. You’ll be fine repotting in the spring.

An alternative for the granular Cleary’s is:

Bonide Infuse Granular Systemic Fungicide (sold on Amazon) is about $20 for a lifetime supply. Use about a teaspoon for small trees, and a tablespoon for larger ones. I apply it in the spring just as candles are beginning to extend, and then again about two weeks after decandling.