Shohin trident ? For Smoke

[Beng]

I see Darios point of view, although I only agree with Al about half the time he can obviously grow a real nice trunk. Brian just wanted a second point of view as he's growing a trunk currently. Al's shown he's great at it so why not get a second opinion from him. Makes sense to me, but he could have just PM'd him. It's meant as a lesson for anyone growing a trunk like this.

 

[bwaynef]

I would try to get rid of the straight portion ( in blue) above the main trunk.

IMO I think the trunk needs to be chopped at the red line and grown out from there.

Al & Brian, if I may poke your brains, why is this course of action preferable over thread-grafting a new apex slightly above and opposite the small branch starting to form on the left? I drew up a virt and it seems like an improvement on the design presented. (I understand that this exercise is pointless and purely academic at this point. I'm just wondering WHY. Whenever you get the time and/or feel like this deserves a response...)

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Al & Brian, if I may poke your brains, why is this course of action preferable over thread-grafting a new apex slightly above and opposite the small branch starting to form on the left? I drew up a virt and it seems like an improvement on the design presented. (I understand that this exercise is pointless and purely academic at this point. I'm just wondering WHY. Whenever you get the time and/or feel like this deserves a response...)

The option of thread-grafting a new apex came to me as I was looking at the photos. I think what Al saw and I couldn't was, while I was trying to make sense of the movement going to the right, he simply changed the movement to the left, improving the movement, taper, and shortening the second section in the process.

 

[Smoke]

I agree with that.

Also that middle section as well as the curved top branch serving as an apex would be hard pressed to bud. I am not sure it would be worth the effort to get it to bud.

 

[Smoke]

Question to Brian. I think you knew what to do before posting this, it is even in your initial post...why the need for Smoke (or someone else) to validate your idea before acting on it? This is not an attack or negative comment. I really want to understand why. Thank you.

Validation is the key to success. Why not ask someone who works with this species all the time? Only a fool thinks he's right all the time. Brian only asked for an opinion, I gave him mine. Many gave theirs. I am sure Brian weighed each decision. It's not a competition.

 

[Smoke]

I see Darios point of view, although I only agree with Al about half the time he can obviously grow a real nice trunk. Brian just wanted a second point of view as he's growing a trunk currently. Al's shown he's great at it so why not get a second opinion from him. Makes sense to me, but he could have just PM'd him. It's meant as a lesson for anyone growing a trunk like this.

Actually Brian did PM me! We can't share virtuals and pictures via PM. Besides why would anyone want to keep this a secret? Has this thread somehow annoyed some people? Why all the negative vibe?

 

[monza]

Cool progression, and interesting grafts for sure.
Thanks!

 

[Beng]

Actually Brian did PM me! We can't share virtuals and pictures via PM. Besides why would anyone want to keep this a secret? Has this thread somehow annoyed some people? Why all the negative vibe?

Definitely didn't annoy me, always love seeing progressions!

 

[Poink88]

Since it is obvious Brian decided not to answer me...

I thought I liked confrontation.....and then there was this guy.......You, sir, are a master of the craft and I applaud you....

It may not seem like it but the question is aimed in helping Brian (IF he needs it). I hope he at least thought about it constructively.

Validation is the key to success. Why not ask someone who works with this species all the time? Only a fool thinks he's right all the time. Brian only asked for an opinion, I gave him mine. Many gave theirs. I am sure Brian weighed each decision. It's not a competition.

Makes sense if that is Brian's intent. Thanks Smoke.

Actually Brian did PM me! We can't share virtuals and pictures via PM. Besides why would anyone want to keep this a secret? Has this thread somehow annoyed some people? Why all the negative vibe?

Can't speak for others but it certainly did not annoy me. My question can be seen as a negative vibe but I assure you (and hope), it shouldn't.

 

[Dirty Nails]

Brian and Al- I have learned as much from you and your progressions as I have from books. You both have great blogs also. Thanks and please keep them coming.

 

[iant]

Oops just realized my question above was already answered in post #8. Thanks smoke
Ian

 

[sherwoodschwartz]

oh good lord.

the problem with the 'ignore user' feature is that you can still see the comments when folks respond. maybe i'll just stick to al's site.

 

[Paradox]

Brian,

Thank you for starting this thread (for whatever reason) to show and share with the rest of us the thought process on this tree.
Smoke, thank you for sharing your thoughts on this tree and experience on this species.

I doubt Brian needs much validation as he has many very nice trees. A second opinion is sometimes nice to have no matter how much experience you have.

Yes, I'm sure they could have done this vial PM or email. However, newbs like me can learn a lot from threads like this and that's the point.

 

[Dav4]

Over the next maybe three years the leader can be grown out to continue the line. This should get the apex back over the center of the root ball. If the tree is continually cut back to never more than three pairs of leaves, the trunk will sprout some buds from adventitious buds that will be activated due to the small number of fuel producing leaves.

Take advantage of those buds and never remove them from the trunk, but never let them get larger than a pencil as they are only sacrifice and can be used to heal wounds.

As you get to that third year if you are happy with branch stubs then branches can be ramified. If not these sacrificers can just be grown out and used for approach grafts or thread grafts using its own branches and keeping all the attributes the same. If you don't need the grafts then cut them off and heal the wounds while still in the ground and dig up the following year. In Fresno I can heal 1/4 wounds in six months.

If all goes well maybe you can have one of those Japanese copies of the neoclassical form of the Japanese Moyogi with a green helmut.

Cheers...

I just reread the thread in it's entirety. The thread, along with the progression, is spectacular. The post above is pure gold...maybe one of the best posts I've ever read on developing tridents. Thanks, Brian, for keeping great records, and thanks, Al, for periodically coming out of the bunker to throw us some pearls like this...good stuff.

 

[coh]

People don't do this enough and wonder why after the chop grows out large enough to be cut back and continue the succsession no branches grow. Thats because it is internodal growth and there is no bud wood there. Buds will pop at the wounds of the large branch on the right if the tree is kept cut back hard for a few years.

Hmm, since I have some "projects" in the ground, I wanted to get clarification on this. Are you saying that if the cut was to be made in the middle or upper section marked in blue, there is a good chance there would be no budding in the remaining blue section? That the trunk might just die back to the next internode? So all the time spent building that section of trunk would be lost? (sorry for some reason the image is not transferring from the original post)

I thought deciduous trees were capable of budding from just about anywhere so this is giving me something to think about.

Chris

 

[Poink88]

I thought deciduous trees were capable of budding from just about anywhere so this is giving me something to think about.

Most do not do this and only grow where there are nodes. I wish they all do though. Some do not even back bud.

Come to think of it, of the trees I have, I think only elm and ficus nerifolia do this "anomaly".

 

[tmmason10]

Every time I see the title of this thread in my email, my wishful thinking mind thinks it says "Shohin Trident? For Sale. "

Oh well. Need to make a growing bed.

 

[bwaynef]

The option of thread-grafting a new apex came to me as I was looking at the photos. I think what Al saw and I couldn't was, while I was trying to make sense of the movement going to the right, he simply changed the movement to the left, improving the movement, taper, and shortening the second section in the process.

The red line indicates a chop. The green line indicates the thread-graft. I looks to me like it was doable.

Again, I'm not trying to prove anybody wrong. I'm just trying to understand.

 

[MACH5]

Been traveling and coming late to this party but a really great progression on what it will be an outstanding piece of shohin!

Thank you Brian and AL as always for sharing your expertise.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Update after 1.5 growing seasons. The next section of trunk is following Al's direction nicely.

The two thread graft attempts failed. the first because I think I stripped away the cambium passing it through, and the second because the scion was broken along the way (dog? I questioned her, but she's not talking). I did get a few good buds that could become the potential first right branch, so we'll see if a graft is necessary.

I think I'll move it up to an Anderson flat in the spring. It's not easy to work on a 4" tall shohin in the ground, although a little more time may help callus movement across the huge scars.