Shortage of pre-bonsai stock?

[rockm]

Auctions

"What auctions? Is workshop material generally worth it? Just curious..."

Local bonsai club auctions can be the single best source for nice, to extremely nice bonsai material at liquidation prices. Over the years, I've seen spectacular trees that would go for thousands retail, go for a tenth to a fifth of that at local bonsai club's annual auctions. That kind of thing isn't common, but it does happen. More commonly, good stock goes for about half what it costs retail at these events. Rarely do prices for even finished bonsai go over $500. Most sales are in the $20-$100 range I think.

That's because the sellers aren't really looking to make a profit (although every so often one shows up and tries and leaves with all his/her stock unsold), they doesn't have room, they've tired of it, or other personal reasons.

If you have a local club, they should have an annual auction. If they don't, they should.

Workshop material can be atrocious, or terrific-depending on who is conducting the workshop and where they're getting their material.

 

[reddog]

"What auctions? Is workshop material generally worth it? Just curious..."

Local bonsai club auctions can be the single best source for nice, to extremely nice bonsai material at liquidation prices. Over the years, I've seen spectacular trees that would go for thousands retail, go for a tenth to a fifth of that at local bonsai club's annual auctions. That kind of thing isn't common, but it does happen. More commonly, good stock goes for about half what it costs retail at these events. Rarely do prices for even finished bonsai go over $500. Most sales are in the $20-$100 range I think.

That's because the sellers aren't really looking to make a profit (although every so often one shows up and tries and leaves with all his/her stock unsold), they doesn't have room, they've tired of it, or other personal reasons.

If you have a local club, they should have an annual auction. If they don't, they should.

Workshop material can be atrocious, or terrific-depending on who is conducting the workshop and where they're getting their material.

There is an auction in the Seattle area that has good material at excellent prices. For the locals this is a great opportunity to add a couple of trees.

Annual PSBA Auction at Weyerhaeuser on June 6th.

 

[Attila Soos]

In Eurpe prices of very good conifer material have risen by 500 % and more over the past ten years. It is almost impossible to find a really good piece below 2,00 euro (3,000 US$).

Walter, what about certain Eastern European countries, where bonsai is still relatively obscure, such as Romania, Ukraine (and other former USSR nations), Bulgaria, Russia? They must have vast areas where no bonsaist set his/her foot yet. Are these places too remote, to make a trip worthwhile? Or they may already be depleted, but there is no discussion about it on the Internet?

 

[Walter Pall]

Attila,

there are folks who collect there. but really good material is rare. One has to search for weeks for a single top tree. There is lots of average material, as much as you want. But even this must have a price from 100 to 200 upwards because of basic cost for collecting. So we speak about a price to cover the cost and make some profit. And in addition we speak about a price for outstanding quality. This has nothing to do with cost but only with the market which is craving for such things. At least here in Europe.
In America folks still have to find out about the value of what they have.

One must understand that in order to be able to spot outstanding material in the mountains one must be a very good bonsai designer. Otherwise you wold walk by it. I have seen this so often. World class material standing there and next to it a hole where someone dug up a little tree in which he could see a bonsai. he could not see the quality of the other one. By this I mean to say that the number of folks who can successfully find the killer trees is limited. There is only a few handful of them. Even if the mountains are full of treasures they are worthless until the right person comes by.
So one cannot hope that locals from Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine etc. will find the trees and offer them. They just will not be able to tell the difference.

 

[grog]

It seems like there's a big gap between "starter material" (liner plants) that you won't be doing much with for quite some time and "pre-bonsai" that starts at $500 and goes straight up. Brent's specimen catalog plants and some of Andy Smith's trees are in the middle and good stuff, but there doesn't seem to be much else fillling that gap.

I'm not too interested in the liner plants for the most part anymore but I'm also not going to pay the equivalent to a mortgage payment for a tree I haven't seen. Someday I'll hopefully have that kind of disposable income but there's no way I can justify making bonsai a financial priority now.

 

[Attila Soos]

So one cannot hope that locals from Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine etc. will find the trees and offer them. They just will not be able to tell the difference.

Yes, that makes sense.
The yamadori is only as good as the person who can see the potential in it. If the person is not skilled enough, the yamadori will not be good enough either.

 

[Attila Soos]

Here is what I am thinking that could be done, if there was somebody willing to do the groundwork and take a little risk: One could visit one of these mountain villages in Eastern Europe and spend a few days training a few young men who have lots of time and not much in terms of work, or income.

For these people, living in the mountains, the cost, and the risk would be very little, since the trees are in their back yards. But the potential for earning for them would be very good. Communication could be done through e-mail (sending pictures, etc).

This way, there could be a constant supply of good material, for very reasonable price. Some of these kids could develop a good eye for yamadori, if someone is willing to train them for a few days.
Instead of digging the trees themselves, they could even tag a few dozen trees that they think it would meet the criteria set by a bonsai expert. Once the trees are tagged, and the location marked, one could go the the specific mountain in the right time of the season, and take the trees. The kids would get a nice finder's fee for each tree. This way, one could reduce the risk of loss due to inexperienced transplanting.

 

[daniel]

You have a great idea, Attila. The same can be said for some of the areas of eastern KY. I know, go ahead and make all the Deliverance jokes you can, but in some areas, there are GREAT ponderosa pine and other pine species (maybe black or white pines, not sure) to be had. Unfortunately, i saw them in a state park, so that's out of the question. These pines grow in very hostile, very sandy, nutrient low soils in very mountainous, rugged areas. Granted that the people around here have never heard of bonsai before, but I'm sure that some of them have heard of selling things for money...

Yes, it's several hours from my house. So no, I don't live in the "holler"...

Daniel

 

[daniel]

If you're looking for something in particular let me know... I'll see what Randy's asking at OregonBonsai.

Hey steve--

Do they do only collected pieces? Or do they have field grown trees, like shimpakus? Just curious. I think it says they focus on collected pieces on their site.

Also, someone here mentioned that greenthumbbonsai has umpteen thousand in their back yard. I noticed on his site that the prices don't seem to match up with quality or caliper. Am I making a stretch, or is this the case? Is the stuff in his field better? Am I just off base?

Thanks!

Daniel

 

[Attila Soos]

You have a great idea, Attila. The same can be said for some of the areas of eastern KY.

Yes, this could be done anywhere. For me, there is no way that I can spend a whole week in a remote place, looking for potential material. But for the local kids, it can be less than an hour away, and they are much more familiar with their mountains. All I would need from them is a dozen or so leads, so that when I go out there, I spend no time searching, but just go directly to the source. This would make the trip worthwhile, and the kids would collect their fee.

 

[amkhalid]

Some of these kids could develop a good eye for yamadori, if someone is willing to train them for a few days.

It is a good idea, and i wish their were more people collecting outstanding material on the canadian west coast to sell in canada (market is limited however).

But realistically, it takes a lot more than a few days to develop the eye for good yamadori. I think most people will agree that the concepts of bonsai aesthetics take awhile to sink in... probably a couple of years for most people. Being able to see the bonsai in complicated wild trees is not easy... the old saying, you have to learn to walk before you can run. Not to mention the horticultural skills, which are a prerequisite.

 

[Marc S]

Here is what I am thinking that could be done, if there was somebody willing to do the groundwork and take a little risk: One could visit one of these mountain villages in Eastern Europe and spend a few days training a few young men who have lots of time and not much in terms of work, or income.

For these people, living in the mountains, the cost, and the risk would be very little, since the trees are in their back yards. But the potential for earning for them would be very good. Communication could be done through e-mail (sending pictures, etc).

This way, there could be a constant supply of good material, for very reasonable price. Some of these kids could develop a good eye for yamadori, if someone is willing to train them for a few days.
Instead of digging the trees themselves, they could even tag a few dozen trees that they think it would meet the criteria set by a bonsai expert. Once the trees are tagged, and the location marked, one could go the the specific mountain in the right time of the season, and take the trees. The kids would get a nice finder's fee for each tree. This way, one could reduce the risk of loss due to inexperienced transplanting.

Finder's fee? Once they find out the real value they won't be satisfied with a fee...

 

[daniel]

So just to get a summary here, the best places (in people's minds) to find pre-bonsai stock are green thumb bonsai, sonlight nursery, and evergreen gardenworks? Is this what you guys think?

 

[Rick Moquin]

Here is what I am thinking that could be done, if there was somebody willing to do the groundwork and take a little risk: One could visit one of these mountain villages in Eastern Europe and spend a few days training a few young men who have lots of time and not much in terms of work, or income.

For these people, living in the mountains, the cost, and the risk would be very little, since the trees are in their back yards. But the potential for earning for them would be very good. Communication could be done through e-mail (sending pictures, etc).

This way, there could be a constant supply of good material, for very reasonable price. Some of these kids could develop a good eye for yamadori, if someone is willing to train them for a few days.
Instead of digging the trees themselves, they could even tag a few dozen trees that they think it would meet the criteria set by a bonsai expert. Once the trees are tagged, and the location marked, one could go the the specific mountain in the right time of the season, and take the trees. The kids would get a nice finder's fee for each tree. This way, one could reduce the risk of loss due to inexperienced transplanting.

Good idea, what about importation restrictions? It's getting harder and harder to import anything. Just look at Walter's collection in the US.

 

[Anonymous User]

This way, there could be a constant supply of good material,....

Only until the resource is depleted.




Will

 

[pauldogx]

Only until the resource is depleted.




Will

You contrarian you.....

 

[TheSteve]

Hey steve--

Do they do only collected pieces? Or do they have field grown trees, like shimpakus? Just curious. I think it says they focus on collected pieces on their site.

Also, someone here mentioned that greenthumbbonsai has umpteen thousand in their back yard. I noticed on his site that the prices don't seem to match up with quality or caliper. Am I making a stretch, or is this the case? Is the stuff in his field better? Am I just off base?

Thanks!

Daniel

No, there's field grown as well. Jason knows better than I do so you could ask him as well. PM one of us with species you're looking for and we'll take care of it.

 

[Attila Soos]

But realistically, it takes a lot more than a few days to develop the eye for good yamadori. I think most people will agree that the concepts of bonsai aesthetics take awhile to sink in... probably a couple of years for most people. Being able to see the bonsai in complicated wild trees is not easy... the old saying, you have to learn to walk before you can run. Not to mention the horticultural skills, which are a prerequisite.

I agree, it takes longer than a few days. But people can be trained over time.
The most practical way is to point out essential characteristics that a yamadori needs to meet: short and squat trunk, interesting curves, deadwood, etc. Then, you can point out characteristics that disqualify a tree: deep, straight hidden trunk under the soil line, long branches with no foliage close to the trunk, etc. Once they learn the essential criteria, the chance for a good find is much improved. They don't really need to have a vision of the bonsai within, but just be aware of general characteristics that good material have. On the other hand, finding great bunjin material is another story - for that one you need much more advanced knowledge.

The best is to mark the tree and let the expert make the final decision and the collecting.This way nothing is left to chance.

 

[Attila Soos]

Is it just me, or is there a run on decent pre-bonsai stock out there? Perhaps it is a good news if the hobby is growing, but I have been having real trouble finding decent material at reasonable prices.

...

Don't forget Kim's nursery in Phelan. I was there a month ago, and he still has great suff for bargain prices - and he is very flexible when it comes to negotiating prices. Really nice guy, and would never go after your last penny. Although bonsai prices went up in the past, it seems to me that he kept his prices pretty much the same.
(I was very touched when heard that not so long ago he lost his only son).

 

[bonhe]

Don't forget Kim's nursery in Phelan. I was there a month ago, and he still has great suff for bargain prices - and he is very flexible when it comes to negotiating prices. Really nice guy, and would never go after your last penny. Although bonsai prices went up in the past, it seems to me that he kept his prices pretty much the same.
(I was very touched when heard that not so long ago he lost his only son).

I was there in 2/2009. He gave me 30% off for Chinese New Year
However, like someone already stated, bonsai club auction is a great place to get stock at very good price. Bonhe