Shortage of pre-bonsai stock?

[Marc S]

I was there in 2/2009. He gave me 30% off for Chinese New Year
However, like someone already stated, bonsai club auction is a great place to get stock at very good price. Bonhe

If you can negotiate prices, or get a discount of 30%, doesn't this mean that their "normal" profit must be huge?

 

[daniel]

Don't forget Kim's nursery in Phelan. I was there a month ago, and he still has great suff for bargain prices - and he is very flexible when it comes to negotiating prices. Really nice guy, and would never go after your last penny. Although bonsai prices went up in the past, it seems to me that he kept his prices pretty much the same.
(I was very touched when heard that not so long ago he lost his only son).

Does he have a website, or some way that someone not in CA can see his inventory? Since most consider him to have great prices, I'd like to check it out. (I googled his name and city and it gave me a listing from the San Diego Club.)

Thanks!

Daniel

 

[Vance Wood]

....And still; in all the debate about price, availability, and the uncertainty of buying off the Internet, even from good sources, little mention is made of the common garden variety nursery. It seems there are some that avoid this market like the plague when in fact anyone with the right knowledge and perseverance to look through rows of trees can still find something as good as many of the pre-bonsai purchased at ten times the price. You may be limited in the species available but if you think there is nothing to be had in the common nursery you are sadly wrong.

Having said that I must point out that the so called Big Box stores usually have material that is here today and gone tomorrow and of little use in bonsai for the most part, but still you can occasionally find something of worth in one of them. The best places to look is in the Mom and Pop nurseries where they take care of their material and may keep it for years. Often you can find some nice things at bargain prices, if you know what you are looking for and don't mind getting your hands dirty and your nails full of crud.

It is also true that nursery trees take special care, mostly to regrow a root system suitable for bonsai; but so do Yamadori. As to the question; is there a shortage of pre-bonsai material? The answer is it depends on what you are looking for, how much you are willing to pay, and the kind of experience you have in identifying it and the ability to work with it. The fact remains that unless you have the time, physical ability, the geographic access, and the experience to collect it, you are left with one choice; pay for it. The availability of world class material will not be available to you unless you are willing to pay world class prices for it.

During trouble financial times the general nursery may yield to you some surprises for next to nothing in some cases. Word of warning: This stuff will not jump out at you and scream Bonsai here, you will have to struggle through a lot of trees to find something worthy.

 

[Marc S]

....And still; in all the debate about price, availability, and the uncertainty of buying off the Internet, even from good sources, little mention is made of the common garden variety nursery. It seems there are some that avoid this market like the plague when in fact anyone with the right knowledge and perseverance to look through rows of trees can still find something as good as many of the pre-bonsai purchased at ten times the price. You may be limited in the species available but if you think there is nothing to be had in the common nursery you are sadly wrong.

Having said that I must point out that the so called Big Box stores usually have material that is here today and gone tomorrow and of little use in bonsai for the most part, but still you can occasionally find something of worth in one of them. The best places to look is in the Mom and Pop nurseries where they take care of their material and may keep it for years. Often you can find some nice things at bargain prices, if you know what you are looking for and don't mind getting your hands dirty and your nails full of crud.

It is also true that nursery trees take special care, mostly to regrow a root system suitable for bonsai; but so do Yamadori. As to the question; is there a shortage of pre-bonsai material? The answer is it depends on what you are looking for, how much you are willing to pay, and the kind of experience you have in identifying it and the ability to work with it. The fact remains that unless you have the time, physical ability, the geographic access, and the experience to collect it, you are left with one choice; pay for it. The availability of world class material will not be available to you unless you are willing to pay world class prices for it.

During trouble financial times the general nursery may yield to you some surprises for next to nothing in some cases. Word of warning: This stuff will not jump out at you and scream Bonsai here, you will have to struggle through a lot of trees to find something worthy.

It also depends on how advanced you are.
If you're not able to find a real potensai at a nursery, you won't be able to recognize and style a world class yamadori.

 

[daniel]

....And still; in all the debate about price, availability, and the uncertainty of buying off the Internet, even from good sources, little mention is made of the common garden variety nursery. It seems there are some that avoid this market like the plague when in fact anyone with the right knowledge and perseverance to look through rows of trees can still find something as good as many of the pre-bonsai purchased at ten times the price. You may be limited in the species available but if you think there is nothing to be had in the common nursery you are sadly wrong.

Having said that I must point out that the so called Big Box stores usually have material that is here today and gone tomorrow and of little use in bonsai for the most part, but still you can occasionally find something of worth in one of them. The best places to look is in the Mom and Pop nurseries where they take care of their material and may keep it for years. Often you can find some nice things at bargain prices, if you know what you are looking for and don't mind getting your hands dirty and your nails full of crud.

It is also true that nursery trees take special care, mostly to regrow a root system suitable for bonsai; but so do Yamadori. As to the question; is there a shortage of pre-bonsai material? The answer is it depends on what you are looking for, how much you are willing to pay, and the kind of experience you have in identifying it and the ability to work with it. The fact remains that unless you have the time, physical ability, the geographic access, and the experience to collect it, you are left with one choice; pay for it. The availability of world class material will not be available to you unless you are willing to pay world class prices for it.

During trouble financial times the general nursery may yield to you some surprises for next to nothing in some cases. Word of warning: This stuff will not jump out at you and scream Bonsai here, you will have to struggle through a lot of trees to find something worthy.

Thanks, Vance! That's really great advice. I think I posted earlier in this thread about a JBP that I found at a local nursery. It's got a 2" trunk, great potential (good trunk movement), and for $40, you can't beat it.

I've gotten some very weird looks by digging through pots to try and find any semblance of nebari...rather funny, especially at how my wife "disowns" me while I'm doing this!

Daniel

 

[Vance Wood]

Thanks, Vance! That's really great advice. I think I posted earlier in this thread about a JBP that I found at a local nursery. It's got a 2" trunk, great potential (good trunk movement), and for $40, you can't beat it.

I've gotten some very weird looks by digging through pots to try and find any semblance of nebari...rather funny, especially at how my wife "disowns" me while I'm doing this!

Daniel

Get used to it, this is what you have to do. Your wife will learn to appreciate it as well---some day. She might even get down and help. One of my best trees was found by my wife.

 

[Vance Wood]

It also depends on how advanced you are.
If you're not able to find a real potensai at a nursery, you won't be able to recognize and style a world class yamadori.

That's very true, there are skills that are necessary for the collecting of both. Some of those skills are visual and in the case of nursery trees, same are tactile; it is necessary to be able to see with your hands. This is a lesson I have been teaching for years that is just now starting to catch on.

 

[Dennis_S]

BonsaiNut,
You can't tell it by his website but www.greenthumbbonsai.com has some excellent prebonsai. He only shows about 30 trees out of about 5000 in his back yard. He is 70 plus, a great guy and has very litlle overhead. His bald cypress are top notch pre-bonsai. If you are looking for anything in particular, you can email him. It will probably be in his backyard or farm. He ships most places. His wife of 50 years died recently and some new business might help his spirits. What John lacks in advertising, he more than makes up in his price.

Dano

You can also help by visiting John's gift store.
http://www.cafepress.com/greenthumbonsai

 

[Marc S]

That's very true, there are skills that are necessary for the collecting of both. Some of those skills are visual and in the case of nursery trees, same are tactile; it is necessary to be able to see with your hands. This is a lesson I have been teaching for years that is just now starting to catch on.

Hmm Vance, what do you mean by "to be able to see with your hands"?

 

[Rick Moquin]

It also depends on how advanced you are.
If you're not able to find a real potensai at a nursery, you won't be able to recognize and style a world class yamadori.

... so so true

 

[Rick Moquin]

Hmm Vance, what do you mean by "to be able to see with your hands"?

... most of the trees available (suitable) at nurseries are basically a bush. You must get in there with your hands and fondle the trunk, branch positions with your eyes shut, not unlike some one that is blind. You would be surprised what your hands see your eyes failed to recognise. Once you have found a vision from within, you can readily see the future tree which may have escape your original survey.

Take this Hinoki for example. This was a bush, most Hinokis in raw form are hard to imagine because of all the fan whorls etc... The criteria close foliage and branch position. This tree is only similar to what I had envisioned at the nursery but it did turn out better than expected. Although it looks like a "shagy dog" now, I think it has a bright future considering this was an initial styling. It should be stunning in as short as 2 years.

 

[Vance Wood]

Hmm Vance, what do you mean by "to be able to see with your hands"?

Ric addressed this question but I would like to add from my own experience, and from what I have been teaching people, or trying to, for years. As many know I have an affinity for Mugo Pines. In the USA we do not have the wonderful and ancient Mugos that the European growers are able to acquire, we are pretty much stuck with the different aspects of the nursery trade. In this area what we run into is as Ric has described as bushes. For the majority of the time this is true, you will come across row after row of manicured bushes trimmed and clipped for landscape purposes, where the Mugo is sold as foundation planting and rarely, accent applications. Looking upon this landscape of similar appearing greenery it is impossible to visualize anything akin to a bonsai, they all look the same and they all look impossible. The conclusion is that no self respecting bonsaiist would waste any time going through these trees hopping to discover a potential bonsai: And most don't or wont.

After years of working with this tree on numerous occasions where I have been asked to do a Mugo Pine workshop I developed a method of finding potentially good trees from this environment. One of the chief arguments against using this material is that Mugos grown this way do not have decent trunks. This is where the technique arose, making it necessary to get one's hands in under the bush and feel around for the trunk and the nebari.

Often a rather large trunk base can be obtained this way and a new top can be regrown from careful pruning of the top---subject for another time. The point remains here as with any tree, the most important aspect of is the trunk. With many nursery trees it is not possible to find a good trunk without looking with your hands. This kind of stuff is out there if you take the time to look with your hands.

 

[Smoke]

I'll continue to look with my eyes.

I have seen quite a few trees posted in the last 12 years that obviously have been chosen for what their "hands" were telling them.

In the end it's obvious that both eyes were closed.

 

[Vance Wood]

I'll continue to look with my eyes.

I have seen quite a few trees posted in the last 12 years that obviously have been chosen for what their "hands" were telling them.

In the end it's obvious that both eyes were closed.

Great contribution there Al!

 

[JasonG]

I'll continue to look with my eyes.

I have seen quite a few trees posted in the last 12 years that obviously have been chosen for what their "hands" were telling them.

In the end it's obvious that both eyes were closed.

LOL!!! I think this falls under the "Not Coddle" response....I love it!

 

[Rick Moquin]

LOL!!! I think this falls under the "Not Coddle" response....I love it!

Nah! he just continues to prove what an arse he can be at times

 

[Smoke]

Come on guys lets use a little common sense here. I may give you the fact that there are "sometimes" things buried under the soil. These may turn out to be good or bad, though the eyes will be the determining factor if what was buried is useable.


My eyes will still decide what is good and what is bad. I may use my hands to find something my eyes can't see but will not choose my material by feel. I can't believe we are even talking about this as a tool in decideing what is good and what is bad.

 

[Marc S]

Ric addressed this question but I would like to add from my own experience, and from what I have been teaching people, or trying to, for years. As many know I have an affinity for Mugo Pines. In the USA we do not have the wonderful and ancient Mugos that the European growers are able to acquire, we are pretty much stuck with the different aspects of the nursery trade. In this area what we run into is as Ric has described as bushes. For the majority of the time this is true, you will come across row after row of manicured bushes trimmed and clipped for landscape purposes, where the Mugo is sold as foundation planting and rarely, accent applications. Looking upon this landscape of similar appearing greenery it is impossible to visualize anything akin to a bonsai, they all look the same and they all look impossible. The conclusion is that no self respecting bonsaiist would waste any time going through these trees hopping to discover a potential bonsai: And most don't or wont.

After years of working with this tree on numerous occasions where I have been asked to do a Mugo Pine workshop I developed a method of finding potentially good trees from this environment. One of the chief arguments against using this material is that Mugos grown this way do not have decent trunks. This is where the technique arose, making it necessary to get one's hands in under the bush and feel around for the trunk and the nebari.

Often a rather large trunk base can be obtained this way and a new top can be regrown from careful pruning of the top---subject for another time. The point remains here as with any tree, the most important aspect of is the trunk. With many nursery trees it is not possible to find a good trunk without looking with your hands. This kind of stuff is out there if you take the time to look with your hands.

Ok, thanks, makes sense.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Al,

If you took out of the post that we merely use our fingers than look at the tree, well....

When I go material hunting, I examine and perform triage on what is there and seevral are placed aside. Then comes a closer inspection and a process of elimination takes place. I have often seen myself selecting 6-8 trees to all be discarded on closer inspection, for various reasons.

If you find a gem every trip, then you are not discerning enough.

 

[Vance Wood]

Nah! he just continues to prove what an arse he can be at times

Can't have one without the other Rick.

Tunnel vision is just what it says, a very narrow range of observation. I expected this response but hoped that some had grown beyond it; apparently that is not the case.

It would seem that some are more interested in discrediting anyone who chooses material that has not been commercially grown for bonsai or harvested from the wild (and yes I caught the innuendo)forgetting that only a very small number of those who are doing bonsai have access to the type of material that they have access to. It is easy to select material where the material is obvious. Hell's Bells you would have to be blind to ignore it. It is easy to obtain material of this quality when you live in it on a daily basis. It is also not such a challenge when you have some of the worlds greatest artists holding your hand when you make these decisions.

For the rest of us bonsai nobodies; we are left to fend for ourselves as one's avatar would suggest, knowing that we are wasting our time, going nowhere, and polluting the world of bonsai with our crap attempts to make bonsai of nothing. As for me; I don't claim to make any world class bonsai and don't really care if some people think me a hack. At least I am honest with myself and with others and my only desire is to help those of like mind and limited resources, both financially and geographically: Those who, as one would say, don't have a clue.

Now if this is coddling then it is coddling. Personally I believe one man's coddle is an-other's condescension; just an attempt to say: My trees are better than your trees---- na-ner-na-ner-naaa-ner. Good, I'm glad for you.