Should I decandle my JBP 'now'?

tmjudd1

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I live in Dallas, Texas. I was going to wait until the end of June to decandle my JBP's, however. The said candles, (all of the stronger ones, that is...), are now starting to bud, as shown below. Is this 'budding' an indication that I should probably go ahead and decandle 'now'?

Candles budding in June.jpg
 
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June / July i think is the best time. Ryan Neil states June 1st. Iv pulled my fertilizers off my JBP trees a week ago, so i might decandle in 2-3 more weeks.
 

parhamr

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No—not quite yet for you, I believe. Somebody from your region will chime in with timings. Is this your second flush of growth for the year?

Ryan Neil and I are in nearly the same climate—we have a slow spring, moderate early summer, and an extended fall growing season. That’s why we decandle in the PNW around June 1–15.
 

MananaP

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No—not quite yet for you, I believe. Somebody from your region will chime in with timings. Is this your second flush of growth for the year?

Ryan Neil and I are in nearly the same climate—we have a slow spring, moderate early summer, and an extended fall growing season. That’s why we decandle in the PNW around June 1–15.
I do the same - we have somewhat similar climate, last week of May - first week of June.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Find your area’s first frost date, count backwards 100 days, and that’s when you decandle black pines.
If you want longer needles, do it a couple weeks earlier, and for shorter needles, do it a couple weeks later.
 

0soyoung

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Lets say 4 - 17 July.

I see that first frost in Dallas may be as early as 24 Nov but is certain by 17 Dec. Per @Brian Van Fleet's rule of thumb decanding would be done between 16 Aug and 8 Sep. However, I speculate that much after mid July you'll most likely get nothing but buds for next year. I hope you give this late decandling a try - I want to know if my speculations are correct.

But since first frost in Birmingham is certainly by 21 November, he may already know the answer to my speculation. Lemme see, I don't know the date he decandles .... hmmm.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Lets say 4 - 17 July.

I see that first frost in Dallas may be as early as 24 Nov but is certain by 17 Dec. Per @Brian Van Fleet's rule of thumb decanding would be done between 16 Aug and 8 Sep. However, I speculate that much after mid July you'll most likely get nothing but buds for next year. I hope you give this late decandling a try - I want to know if my speculations are correct.

But since first frost in Birmingham is certainly by 21 November, he may already know the answer to my speculation. Lemme see, I don't know the date he decandles .... hmmm.
Mid-July here. First average frost is 11/5.
You should do some experimenting too, to accompany (or replace) some of this speculating.
 

0soyoung

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Mid-July here. First average frost is 11/5.
You should do some experimenting too, to accompany (or replace) some of this speculating.
100 days is 28 July. Are you telling me that you've decandled in early Aug and gotten more than buds?

My climate is so cool compared to yours that I must decandle circa 1 June to get good results. I have decandled circa 15 July and got largely buds but 'micro-needles' a few in a few instances. My first frost dates range from 23 Oct to 8 Dec. First frost for Portland OR are 15 Oct to 2 Nov, but as @parhamr has noted they, in the Portland, OR area, too must decandle about the same time. We share the same low AHS heat zone 1 with essentially no days above 86F in the average year. I noticed recently that Bonsai Tonight Jonas decandles about the same time as we do west of the Cascades. He is in Alameda CA in the environs of San Francisco and has a similar low heat zone climate rarely getting above 86F, but that rarely ever has a frost.

So, I am simply eliciting @tmjudd1 who is in a climate that can experiment in a meaningful way, to experiment. If he doesn't want to, he doesn't want to. But, if he does I am very interested in hearing about the results. IIRC, I also tried to elicit someone else in the Dallas area, but maybe not. I predict that he will largely just get buds following your 100 day 'rule'.

Thank you for confirming your decandling date(s).
 
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Brian Van Fleet

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@Brian Van Fleet what about frost free winter zone ?
It should still take 100 days, so experiment with timing, knowing how long a second flush takes to harden off. Document your timing and take photos. Then adjust your schedule: candle-cut later to get shorter needles and earlier for longer.

@0soyoung I didn’t do the math on your results today, and you are clearly fickle about precision. However, it sounds like your JBP also take about 100 days to harden off a second flush. Being off by a week or two either way is not like being off .005 degrees on the moonshot. You’ll still get there.

And yes, I have decandled as late as Aug 1 to get short needles on a Shohin. I also decandled this JBP super early (sorry, on June 7 2019 at 10:48 AM to be precise) to work on it during the intensive, and I don’t expect the needles to be 2 feet long. I will adjust feeding and water to the extent I can, and left pretty long necks. It will be ok.
99D9EEE2-F372-4EBA-BEA5-C93940A89740.jpegC66E66D4-3689-479E-8733-F4B19D83515B.jpegD1B6F71E-F8DB-4C38-9E12-28F46E1A29C7.jpeg
 

Thomas J.

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I live in the Dallas area and July 4th is a good indicator around here for decandeling. I've also done it a few weeks before on some of my larger trees and a few weeks later on my smaller ones but mid July would be the break off point for me for sure. The OP can message me if he has any further questions on his JBP. :)
 

Hbomb

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I repotted my JB pines this year and they all see, to be doing well.

My question is should I decandle this year, considering the repot?
 

Adair M

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For the record, I state that my “decandling date” is July 4th, here in North Georgia. In practice, however, I rarely actually do any decandling on July4th, I’m doing something else. But, that’s the date I use because it’s easy to remember. I do some a little before, and some a little after.

I use July 14th, (Bastille Day) to do Shohin. Off with their heads! Again, it’s easy to remember! And a day or two one way or the other doesn’t matter.

0so, Alemeda has an unusual climate as does most of the Bay Area around San Francisco. Hayward, where Boon used to live, is different, too.

Everyone who does JBP needs to observe how their trees respond to decandling and adjust accordingly.

AND... there are SO many factors that can affect the growth of the summer candles! Things like drought, rainfall, temperature, fertilizer, stage of refinement, degree of “potboundness” or lack thereof, age of the tree, density of the foliage, genetics of the individual tree... all these things can affect how each individual tree responds to decandling.

I just decandled a dozen of my JBP I keep at Boon’s. I usually remove the fertilizer filled teabags when I decandle. One old tree that’s very highly refined, I kept the fertilizer on. It’s needs are different than the others.

The 100 day protocol is a general guideline that generates good average results. Like any guideline, it is a starting point that can be adjusted to meet specific situations.
 

Dav4

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Fwiw, I just decandled my largest JBP. I would normally be doing this in early July, but it's a busy time of year with vacation happening late June into July, I only have one functional hand and not my scissor hand to boot, and I have too many trees:p. Certainly early for my climate but not horribly so, as the needles will only be bit longer and it's over 2 ft tall.
 

Adair M

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Fwiw, I just decandled my largest JBP. I would normally be doing this in early July, but it's a busy time of year with vacation happening late June into July, I only have one functional hand and not my scissor hand to boot, and I have too many trees:p. Certainly early for my climate but not horribly so, as the needles will only be bit longer and it's over 2 ft tall.
You’ll be ok. If you had decandled really early, like at the end of May, yeah, you’d get needles just as long as if you hadn’t decandled! You would, however, benefit by having more shoots, and likely shorter internodes,

Decandling has benefits other than just reducing needle length. It enhances ramification by producing multiple shoots for each cut candle, the resulting candles are shorter, and the new summer candles have hardly any “neck” (the bare portion of the shoot where there are no needles). And, decandling is a major tool used to create balance across the entire canopy of the tree, when proper techniques are used.
 

Thomas J.

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I repotted my JB pines this year and they all see, to be doing well.

My question is should I decandle this year, considering the repot?
As noted above there are differing factors for decandeling your tree, mainly is it in the stage for decandeling meaning the refinement stage? If so then it depends on how healthy the tree is. I know there are some who say don't decandle if you repot but I have never held true to that. Most of my JBPs are in the full refinement stage or semi refinement so they will get decandeled every year even if I repot that year unless the health of a particular tree proves otherwise. I have never had a problem doing both in the same year as you can see in my last thread. https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/anticipation-is-growing.38888/
 

River's Edge

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I live in Dallas, Texas. I was going to wait until the end of June to decandle my JBP's, however. The said candles, (all of the stronger ones, that is...), are now starting to bud, as shown below. Is this 'budding' an indication that I should probably go ahead and decandle 'now'?

View attachment 246955
Can i see a picture of the tree to help decide, based on the stage of refinement the timing will vary. My zone is the same as yours and i begin decandling June 1st for younger less developed stock and wait until July 1st for older more refined stock. Sometimes the timing varies and the techniques vary with the tree's condition. You have not stated wether you are considering a one step decandling or three step, which can also affect the timing. Generally speaking if this is the first time for the tree, June 1 is a good guide. Then you can judge the response and vary the times to match your tree and climate.
The bud does not factor in to the decandling decision.
 

thumblessprimate1

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Lets say 4 - 17 July.

I see that first frost in Dallas may be as early as 24 Nov but is certain by 17 Dec. Per @Brian Van Fleet's rule of thumb decanding would be done between 16 Aug and 8 Sep. However, I speculate that much after mid July you'll most likely get nothing but buds for next year. I hope you give this late decandling a try - I want to know if my speculations are correct.

But since first frost in Birmingham is certainly by 21 November, he may already know the answer to my speculation. Lemme see, I don't know the date he decandles .... hmmm.
I'll give it a try on my only pine, shohin. I'll shoot for late August.
 

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