River's Edge
Masterpiece
Important to remember that if summer shoots are desired for grafting then the late decandling is not a good choice.
Should I decandle my JBP 'now'?
- Thread starter tmjudd1
- Start date
LanceMac10
Imperial Masterpiece
.....have done this and got a "summer" flush....
Lance's JBP....
Heading home shortly, so I figured I would put up a photo and ask the Pine Pros to put on their teacher sweater and offer some tips. I acquired this tree from a friend whom is battling Parkinsons. Tough to say when the last time properly applied techniques were applied. The top is getting leggy...
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
What I glean is as follows (I just want to make sure I'm not overlooking something important, again):.....have done this and got a "summer" flush....
Lance's JBP....
Heading home shortly, so I figured I would put up a photo and ask the Pine Pros to put on their teacher sweater and offer some tips. I acquired this tree from a friend whom is battling Parkinsons. Tough to say when the last time properly applied techniques were applied. The top is getting leggy...www.bonsainut.com
- You decandled on just before 3 Sep 15. You had new terminal buds by 16 Oct 15. Those buds did not push until the next spring, which you showed in your 20 Apr 16 post.
- You decandled your 'practice pine' on some random day in Aug 2016 and you post pix of what I call 'micro needles' in post #36 on 9 Sep 16.
- [editorial remark]: WOW! I, for instance, decandled my JBP on 2 June 19 and I still have difficulty seeing the adventitious buds now, almost a month later.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
Orig. was such a gross exaggeration/misstatement. I don't expect to be able to make them out until at least a month later (4th of July) - tbd.
LanceMac10
Imperial Masterpiece
@0soyoung it looks like your first "frost" is predicted for Oct. 31. From June 2, that's pushing 140 days. Why so early?
In '15 I pruned shoots and had buds formed relatively quickly. I've now think/do fall pruning in October. But no, buds set and opened the following spring.
'16 shoot pruned early/mid August, and sure, the needles were pretty small, but they kept on growing into November.
My first expected frost date this year is said to be October 1.
In '15 I pruned shoots and had buds formed relatively quickly. I've now think/do fall pruning in October. But no, buds set and opened the following spring.
'16 shoot pruned early/mid August, and sure, the needles were pretty small, but they kept on growing into November.
My first expected frost date this year is said to be October 1.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
It is where it worked out to be by trial and error with several years of trials. But my explanation is the same as why Ryan on the north side of Portland, OR and Jonas in Alameda, CA (where it never freezes) decandle about the same time - we live in very cool climates. It rarely gets much above 70F here and, historically speaking, 'never' above 86F for all of us. We're all in the American Horticultural Society heat zone 1.
Plants'/trees' metabolism increases rapidly with temperature, but I'm still shocked by your 'micro-needles' in a month. I see that your daily high temperatures are usually in the high 70s in August and staying around 60F at night. Kind of the same as the height of my summer. Right now day time highs are in the high 60s and night time lows in the mid 50s.
I had not noted (confirmation bias?) that anyone decandles after mid July even though it may be well over 100 days to first frost (if any). Most pines harden new growth and set buds for next year before mid-July. I've also noted that deciduous species such as horse chestnut seemingly will not break bud if pruned/defoliated after the summer solstice. Years ago I measured the rate of stem thickening of several species and noted that the growth modes of plans changes with the passage of the summer solstice. Hence I formed my speculation that one will get nothing but buds when decandling circa August or thereafter. It is pretty much the case in my climate, but both you and Brian have refuted that speculation. Had it been true, I think it would have been a useful insight.
Are you going to try late decandling anyway, @thumblessprimate1? I would appreciate the extra 'data'.
Regardless, I guess I should STFU about this.
BackyardBonsai
Shohin
No! No! It will just sit there until next Spring. You should do first week of August. I did late last year around first week of Sept and that seem to have weaken many of them compare to previous years. Since you only have one, be safe, worst case is you have a bit longer needle than ideal.
thumblessprimate1
Masterpiece
Alrighty, I'll do mid August. 
LanceMac10
Imperial Masterpiece
LanceMac10
Imperial Masterpiece
@0soyoung I pruned my trainer a week or two ago, so we can see the response from that. A cool, wet spring made things a bit slow go-ing, but the nighttime lows are higher, which helps.
I would have tried it again in your time frame, too late now!!!
Repotted the other this spring, I'm debating wether to "spring prune" or skip it or wait 'till fall and cut back to old needles I've saved/back-budding I'm "husbanding" along.....
I would have tried it again in your time frame, too late now!!!
Repotted the other this spring, I'm debating wether to "spring prune" or skip it or wait 'till fall and cut back to old needles I've saved/back-budding I'm "husbanding" along.....
thumblessprimate1
Masterpiece
Here's my pine at the moment for comparison
tmjudd1
Mame
Yes, I did, however. I only decandled the lowest branch candles and also reduced the needles to about 8 pairs per. I believe that I now see buds forming between those needles.
I'll take care of the mid range candles next weekend, followed by the apex(s) a couple weeks after that.
エドガー
Shohin
I'm a n00b...so, I think I de-candled much too early? (always saw on YT, that mid-May or June was the best time to decandle, or when it's still green/fresh and easily pinch'able... idk, they were probably wrong, lol)...
I de-candled around mid-late May iirc. Only the longest candles, 2-4" long. Not many at all, only maybe 10-20 candles per tree (probably only 5-10% of the candles, because it's a big garden/niwaki tree). I did it early because I noticed a few of the candles were starting to harden/brown off already.
My 2 trees are 4-5' tall garden (branches trained horizontal) JBPs, 2.75-3.25" trunk, 6-7 levels of branch tiers, maybe 15-20 years old (not sure..they seem pretty mature though).
(I also have 4 baby saplings, 7yo I think... but this post isn't about them, since they're in development).
For the OC area... when is the best time to de-candle? Late-June or early-July?
Did I make a grave mistake by cutting the (only a couple) candles too soon in May? What will happen and what are the negative repercussions? (too long 2nd-flush candles?)
Are you supposed to decandle 100% of the tree and EVERY single bit of new-growth/new-candle (any candle with new needles) down to a closer node? (even the 0.5-1" candles?)
Or, is only decandling the most vigorous/longest and perhaps the medium ones too, sufficient (let's say, maybe only 10-20% of the tree)? (and just leaving the small candles alone, the ones that are hardly even 0.5-1" long)
...My foliage right now looks pretty healthy and have filled up my branches again (especially compared to post-Momiage last winter).. although, mine is niwaki style, tall, and the branch pads/tiers have a lot of space between them (about 1' of spacing between the branch tiers).
I performed "Momiage" on them last late-December (needle plucking down to only 3-6 pairs per tip; mostly 3 pairs though..because it's what I've been told by the Japanese-nurseryman I bought these trees from... even though I've always read it's supposed to be around 6-8 pairs). I assume this is a good time for momiage for niwaki (from my research), correct?
I de-candled around mid-late May iirc. Only the longest candles, 2-4" long. Not many at all, only maybe 10-20 candles per tree (probably only 5-10% of the candles, because it's a big garden/niwaki tree). I did it early because I noticed a few of the candles were starting to harden/brown off already.
My 2 trees are 4-5' tall garden (branches trained horizontal) JBPs, 2.75-3.25" trunk, 6-7 levels of branch tiers, maybe 15-20 years old (not sure..they seem pretty mature though).
(I also have 4 baby saplings, 7yo I think... but this post isn't about them, since they're in development).
For the OC area... when is the best time to de-candle? Late-June or early-July?
Did I make a grave mistake by cutting the (only a couple) candles too soon in May? What will happen and what are the negative repercussions? (too long 2nd-flush candles?)
Are you supposed to decandle 100% of the tree and EVERY single bit of new-growth/new-candle (any candle with new needles) down to a closer node? (even the 0.5-1" candles?)
Or, is only decandling the most vigorous/longest and perhaps the medium ones too, sufficient (let's say, maybe only 10-20% of the tree)? (and just leaving the small candles alone, the ones that are hardly even 0.5-1" long)
...My foliage right now looks pretty healthy and have filled up my branches again (especially compared to post-Momiage last winter).. although, mine is niwaki style, tall, and the branch pads/tiers have a lot of space between them (about 1' of spacing between the branch tiers).
I performed "Momiage" on them last late-December (needle plucking down to only 3-6 pairs per tip; mostly 3 pairs though..because it's what I've been told by the Japanese-nurseryman I bought these trees from... even though I've always read it's supposed to be around 6-8 pairs). I assume this is a good time for momiage for niwaki (from my research), correct?
Mid May is much too early. Orange County is Southern California, right? You have a long growing season. Decandle LATER when you live in a long growing season. Decandle EARLIER when you live in a short growing season.
The reason?
You want to control the SECOND flush of growth. The first flush gets cut off. You want the second flush to have shorter needles, shorter internodes. Decandling shortens the growing season. So the second flush needles have less time to grow before the seasons change and the tree goes dormant.
By decandling early, the second flush will have longer to grow, and so you will likely have longer needles on those areas than the areas you decandle later.
For a good video instruction, I suggest you visit www.bonsaiboon.com, and rent his JBP videos.
The reason?
You want to control the SECOND flush of growth. The first flush gets cut off. You want the second flush to have shorter needles, shorter internodes. Decandling shortens the growing season. So the second flush needles have less time to grow before the seasons change and the tree goes dormant.
By decandling early, the second flush will have longer to grow, and so you will likely have longer needles on those areas than the areas you decandle later.
For a good video instruction, I suggest you visit www.bonsaiboon.com, and rent his JBP videos.
エドガー
Shohin
Thanks... I’ll do late-June to early-July from now on.
But... come the correct time to decandle, do you do 100% of the tree, even the small 0.25-1” candles??
Or, do you leave those weak growers alone, and just decandle the long, strong and medium ones?
But... come the correct time to decandle, do you do 100% of the tree, even the small 0.25-1” candles??
Or, do you leave those weak growers alone, and just decandle the long, strong and medium ones?
エドガー
Shohin
Is there a place I can DL/view without paying for it? Don't judge me... but I don't like paying for videos, music nor computer programs. (even though I'm a videographer, photographer and also music-producer myself, lol)
The alternative is to pay to attend the fall Intensive.
That costs a LOT more!
Ahem... You get what you pay for!
tmjudd1
Mame
Now that my pines are coming along quite well... I think that I, myself, will rent Boon's video! I keep trying to catch the 'Smith's', for their local presentations, but darned if work, etc. foils it every time. One of these days. For now, Boon is looking really good. I'm sure that the really cheap rental will be money very well spent. For whatever it's worth... I don't like paying for videos, music nor computer programs, either. I'm simply not into any of that stuff, at all, however. I'll certainly pay the price for good education and information 'ANY' day!
エドガー
Shohin
Me and you both... but, for hobbies I truly love, on that very rare occasion, I will buy a few books/videos. I've already bought books for bonsai/niwaki (among other off-topic hobbies), so I might as well rent Boon's videos too.
I'm just always very hesitant to just blindy buy anything, especially educational-media that may be no different than what I've already read/watched a thousand times on YT, books or blogs. But, since Boon is a legend, one of the first/most-important in the US bonsai scene and old-school, I feel safer to purchase.
I'm just always very hesitant to just blindy buy anything, especially educational-media that may be no different than what I've already read/watched a thousand times on YT, books or blogs. But, since Boon is a legend, one of the first/most-important in the US bonsai scene and old-school, I feel safer to purchase.
