Show and Tell?

[Vance Wood]

Vance, who specifically ever said that nursery stock was a waste of time?

I'm not going to give out names. If you are interested read through Al Keppler's last editorial the comments or allusions to the concept were made here. Warning the site is down for backing up you will have to wait.

 

[Vance Wood]

My only problem with nursery stock is trying to get those "root balls" sorted out. They are in the cans so long the feeder roots are so twisted and grown together they become impossible to comb or rinse out, you nearly stress the tree to death to even get the base cleaned out and sorted. I guess after you pound a saw or long knife into the root ball you can cut the bottom half off and that helps a little but dang.. why can't they just use perelite.

That is a difficult task if you do it by the books. I assume you have read my root pruning article? I tell you how to do this in there. But you have root problems with collected material and prebonsai as well. A lot of the prebonsai I have seen do not have the "dream team" root balls every one talks about.

 

[Smoke]

Here is a small thread with a piece of collected material, pyracantha. I think the photo's speak for themselves. I have looked in many nurseries and have never found pyracantha much over 1 inch on the trunk. Even the five gallon size is pretty puny.

I wanted a larger trunked specimen and when these trees were slated for removal from a shopping center I was there to dig some up. I only wish I had been there earlier in the day, the best ones had already met Mr. bobcat! There was a small plot og ground in one corner that they did not demo till Monday. I was able to ask and dig during the weekend. I managed to dig 5 but 3 died.

Could this be done with nursery pyracantha, certainly. Could I have done it in my lifetime, yes, if I struk the cutting when I was born and started to work on it at age 1 and pruned on it weekly like the gardeners did to develop the trunk so compact and short.

Do I think great bonsai can be made with nursery material? Of course!

Do I think World class bonsai can be made from nursery material? Sure, givin enough time and craftsmanship. I just don't think it's the best way.

The double trunk below started as a triple trunk. Looked like a rubberglove. Mike Page suggested cutting off the offending trunk and I agree that it improved the tree. Will it ever be a world class tree, probably not as long as I own it. But, It is one of the best trees that I own and that is because they were collected and built with something that had so much built in character that to do this from nursery material would have taken a life time. I am glad I was there to retrieve them.

 

[Smoke]

Now these collected junipers from Mojave have the capibility of becoming "World Class Bonsai". These will still take much time to develop and are not instant bonsai by any means. In fact these may take longer than nursery stock. I am willing to wait and to put in the time, because I know when I am nearing the twilight of my years these trees will be donated to collections throughout California to live on.

They will be beautiful bonsai, why? Because the trees are large, impressive and will contain deadwood. This will be in stark contrast with the green foliage, and sorry to say, this has become the norm by wich we judge World Class Bonsai. Oh, and flowers never hurt either.

This shohin sized juniper is from nursery stock. It resides currently next to my trident from pre bonsai stock. Both trees were started in 2003. The juniper will never look like the junipers from Mojave no matter how hard I try.

For some reason I feel that Vance has taken my original thread he mentions above personal. I have many trees in training or nearing completion from nursery stock. The juniper I show is one such tree. The editorial was written with one thing in mind. It was written to show that it is OK to buy a more finished tree. It is OK to purchase Collected stock for those that may never get to collect it. If any doubts how much work I have in the trident pictured with the juniper than they know nothing about bonsai.

And for Rick M. I have had just as much fun working on this tree and developing branches that did not exist as someone that had grown this from a cutting. I just skipped alot of boring years. Boring for some, not boring for others. It all boils down to what your fun factor in bonsai is. Many work with seed and cuttings, and many like to do the nursery thing on their hands and knees. Many like to collect and many have the funds to buy great material. In the end we all have a lot of fun doing what we like to do. Make bonsai to the best of our ability and drink a beer and look at it.

Thats what I am doing right now while the rib steaks cook on the grill!

 

[Tachigi]

Ok equal time for all categories. Please keep in mind these were just taken by my daughters. I had to anneal wire. They haven't been primped or fussed over for the pictures. The first is a juniper collected April "04 a before and after, the second is a Virgina pine collected April '04 a semi before and after, The third is a Garden center juniper for about 20 bucks, bought spring of 03(sorry no before pictures, Just visualize a plastic pot with a shrub ) The fourth and final is a ponderosa acquired from NE Bonsai April of 06 for about 200.00. This was raw material.

I see little difference in the above categories of trees that my daughters chose. They all took approximately the same time to bring to this point. So the notion that a nursery tree will be ready years before a yamadori or possibly a prebonsai is a silly one from my perspective.

Yamadori offers age and sculpture from mother nature something that as hard as we try we just can't imitate with percise exactness. Nursery prebonsai offers a person the ability to create an image in a shorter space of time. Something that the true artist or senior finds appealing. Garden center nursery stock offers endless possibilities and the enjoyment of the hunt. I have done all of them and enjoy each. For the exception of my aching knees after a nursery crawl.

 

[Tachigi]

The final pictures

 

[Rick Moquin]

And for Rick M. I have had just as much fun working on this tree and developing branches that did not exist as someone that had grown this from a cutting. I just skipped alot of boring years. Boring for some, not boring for others. It all boils down to what your fun factor in bonsai is. Many work with seed and cuttings, and many like to do the nursery thing on their hands and knees. Many like to collect and many have the funds to buy great material. In the end we all have a lot of fun doing what we like to do. Make bonsai to the best of our ability and drink a beer and look at it

Al,

I am not sure how the aforementioned statement fits with/or in describing your position. If you have taken the time to read my posts vice perhaps given them a cursory glance, you would have undoubtedly understood where I stand on this issue. When Vance posted the original thread there were no mention of any one in particular.

To sum up where I stand on these issues I have stated that:

To say that a credible bonsai cannot be created out of nursery stock is total rubish.

To say that nursery stock can be developed into a credible bonsai in a shorter time frame than collected or pre-bonsai material is the figment of someones imagination.

That for folks who say money is not a factor is also total rubish. Those who have it will depend upon it etc... and rightfully so.

To some, bonsai is the journey vice ownership. When growing from cuttings or seedlings the skilled enthusiast can nurture the trees and control the growth in the proper direction. Having said that, this is indeed the slowest way in achieving a credible bonsai, which, may be rewarding to some and a waste of time for others.

Achieving a credible bonsai takes both time and money or a combination thereof. Either a lot of time for a low capital investment or a shorter time frame for a larger investment. Nonetheless, it equates in the long run.

I will agree however that bonsai is as different to folks as there are clouds in the sky. One thing is for sure that regardless of the reasons we practice our craft, the one that stands out is passion, without it, we wouldn't be wasting our valuable time debating such issues.

 

[Anonymous User]

My only problem with nursery stock is trying to get those "root balls" sorted out. They are in the cans so long the feeder roots are so twisted and grown together they become impossible to comb or rinse out, you nearly stress the tree to death to even get the base cleaned out and sorted. I guess after you pound a saw or long knife into the root ball you can cut the bottom half off and that helps a little but dang.. why can't they just use perelite.

Collected stock is also very hard to develop roots on, unless the tree was growing in a rock pocket, the roots are often long and need serious work in order to develop nebari and the fine feeders needed.

Pre-bonsai, if the grower knew what they were doing, can offer better roots, but not all of the time.


Will

 

[Smoke]

Al,


To sum up where I stand on these issues I have stated that:

To say that a credible bonsai cannot be created out of nursery stock is total rubish.

To say that nursery stock can be developed into a credible bonsai in a shorter time frame than collected or pre-bonsai material is the figment of someones imagination.

That for folks who say money is not a factor is also total rubish. Those who have it will depend upon it etc... and rightfully so.

To some, bonsai is the journey vice ownership. When growing from cuttings or seedlings the skilled enthusiast can nurture the trees and control the growth in the proper direction. Having said that, this is indeed the slowest way in achieving a credible bonsai, which, may be rewarding to some and a waste of time for others.

Achieving a credible bonsai takes both time and money or a combination thereof. Either a lot of time for a low capital investment or a shorter time frame for a larger investment. Nonetheless, it equates in the long run.

I will agree however that bonsai is as different to folks as there are clouds in the sky. One thing is for sure that regardless of the reasons we practice our craft, the one that stands out is passion, without it, we wouldn't be wasting our valuable time debating such issues.

My apoligies, I had no idea that the thread had only to do with just "Credible Bonsai".

If that is the bar, then I concede. You are correct credible bonsai can be made from nursery stock, end of debate.

My position is a little higher. I wish to have some "incredible bonsai". I feel that the fastest and easiest way to acheive that goal is with material grown specifiacally for bonsai and of the highest quality one can afford. Collected is much better and best if affordable or can be dug readily. But, to each their own...ak

PS, I am still confused as to why their is such a debate in defending medocrity? Is credible the bar?

 

[Walter Pall]

These are two of my trees:

1) Chinese Juniper, from nursery stock, around 60 years old

1) Rocky Mountain Juniper, from collected material, around 600 years old


Both are appreciated in general as top trees and if you want to use the term 'world class'. Both took around 8 to 10 years to get there from scrap. The scrap was MUCH less promising with the garden juniper, and MUCH less expensive. So it is possible to create a real good bonsai from a nursery tree with around 150 to spend for the material.

What does this tell us?

Well, this is not the whole story. Out of 100 real top conifers only one comes from a nursery originally and the rest are collected trees. With non-conifers I would estimate that out of 100 real good ones sixty are collected and the rest come form nurseries or are even raised from seed or cuttings.

 

[Anonymous User]

Great trees and informative post Walter.




Will

 

[Vance Wood]

each their own...ak

PS, I am still confused as to why their is such a debate in defending medocrity? Is credible the bar?

First off Al, you did not say nursery trees were a waste of time in your editorial, some others did.

As to why there is a debate: Your PS says it all. Though you do not say so in so many words, the suggestion is present that you consider anything less than collected and or prebonsai as defending mediocrity. This is like apologizing for calling someone stupid by saying: "I'm sorry you're stupid". That's a bit of a stretch but I think you get my point.

 

[Rick Moquin]

My apoligies, I had no idea that the thread had only to do with just "Credible Bonsai".

If that is the bar, then I concede. You are correct credible bonsai can be made from nursery stock, end of debate.

My position is a little higher. I wish to have some "incredible bonsai". I feel that the fastest and easiest way to acheive that goal is with material grown specifiacally for bonsai and of the highest quality one can afford. Collected is much better and best if affordable or can be dug readily. But, to each their own...ak

PS, I am still confused as to why their is such a debate in defending medocrity? Is credible the bar?

No aopologies necessary Al.

When it comes to where the bar is at, if we refer to the other thread, it has been brought to my attention that the answer is as obscure or subjective as the question.

In answer to your third paragraph, you have chosen to add a third definition to the "world class" or international scene, not a problem when one clarifies their position and definitions. Now to achieve such endeavour I will conceide that yes indeed in order to achieve your objective in your lifespan, the selection of pre-bonsai and collected material is the way to go, that is, to achive all the desired great qualities of an old tree without the hint of human intervention.

Having said that, I have not changed my original position that it is impossible to create an "incredible" tree with nursery stock, but rather extremely difficult in comparison with the other two source, the greatest success rate will occur within the latter.

When we debate the cost associated in creating that "incredible tree" one will have to conceide that they exceed the average enthusiast's wallet. Am I in awe with the world class trees? Yes! will I ever achieve such visions of grandeur? No! I don't have the time nor the means to aspire to such grandeur, as many. However, my goal is indeed to possess respectable trees, and should this by definition become the definition of mediocraty, then indeed you have offended the community at large with such elitist connotations, edit: and have failed IMHO to comprehend the meaning and spirit of what bonsai really is.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Walter,

Thanks for accepting the gauntlet and in demonstrating that the possibilities do exist in creating credible trees from nursery stock. Would you mind sharing with us one of your deciduous trees that was created from nursery stock?

 

[agraham]

Walter,

Was the regular nursery juniper container grown or field grown?

andy

 

[Walter Pall]

Walter,

Was the regular nursery juniper container grown or field grown?

andy

Andy,

field grown since around 50 years.

 

[Chris Johnston]

So what I propose here is a little friendly competition: I'll show you mine if you show me yours. Hopefull we will get to see a learning and cultural progression.

Several have shown theirs.

 

[Walter Pall]

Walter,

Thanks for accepting the gauntlet and in demonstrating that the possibilities do exist in creating credible trees from nursery stock. Would you mind sharing with us one of your deciduous trees that was created from nursery stock?

Rick,

European linden, Tilia platiphyllos, from a bonsai nursery that started this tree from a cutting 30 years ago. Two equaly valid fronts again for a tree in the naturalistic style.

So is this a nursery tree? Well, it is a tree that was meant to become a bonsai from the outset. The juniper never dreamed of ever becoming a bonsai though.

 

[Walter Pall]

Two lilacs that came from a nursery that only kept lilacs to cut the flowers once a year.So these are truly nursery trees. But not in every nursery one would find such trees.
As one can see it is possible to find outstanding material for world class trees in nurseries that are not even bonsai nurseries. But one would really have to know what to look for and where.

How much is a world class tree? Each one of these lilacs was 25 US$.

 

[Anonymous User]

Several have shown theirs.

How about yours?