Simulating seasons for natural growth and dormancy patterns

[bonsaiapprentice]

Hello everyone,

So before everyone goes off telling me it can’t be done, please bare with me as I try and give it a shot.

I’m going to try to recreate an indoor space complete with lighting, temp and humidity controls that simulate the outdoor light and temperature patterns going in areas where, specifically, Japanese maples grow. The space will be sealed off from the rest of the house to keep temp and humidity levels on point and dialed in.

Since plants and trees both get their cues from the amount of sunlight they receive to know what season they’re in, I plan on using a timer I made myself to gradually lower/increase the amount of “daylight” they receive throughout the year. With these changes I will also program a portable ac unit to cool/warm the space as the “seasons” change in the space to provide the trees with a spring, summer, fall season and an eventual dormancy period. I know I won’t be able to recreate nature perfectly but I believe I can get it close enough to fool the trees into growing properly indoors.

I’m doing this more than anything as an experiment and because I absolutely love Japanese maples and because unfortunately I live in a place where they wouldn’t survive outdoors. So why not try right?

This is an introductory thread; I’ll be detailing everything as I go along. Just wanted to open things up to see if anyone had any insight or experience with indoor growing.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I have some work experience with indoor dormancy.
We kept the rooms at 5-8 degrees C. Since it doesn't actually freezes, we were able to switch plants from 27°C to 5 in a minute without any harm.

My advice is to check if you can actually get those temps in your grow system. Otherwise you'd be fighting an uphill battle. Decreasing light hours doesn't have to be very gradual, you can decrease the hours by 2 every month, with 8 hours of daylight as your minimal value and 16-17 as your max.

 

[leatherback]

Since plants and trees both get their cues from the amount of sunlight they receive to know what season they’re in

Not completely. Chill hours/chill units are -at least- equally important, as I understand it. Which is the reason that currently all over the world people have trees waking up in winter: Once chill hours are met, any period where temps pop over ~50F cause plants to wake up as soon as january.

before you start building, read up some more

 

[bonsaiapprentice]

Thanks for the replies. My ac unit can actually reach around 45 degrees F at the coldest. It’s a unit from a restaurant fridge I repurposed and turned into a portable ac. From what I’ve read that should be cold enough to influence proper growing and dormancy patterns. The way I’m programming the lights and temp is basically to mimic hours of light and temperatures from zones 6-7, gradually changing both light hours and temperatures. I’ll go into more detail tonight when I get home.

 

[sorce]

Chill Hours is a myth.

Welcome to Crazy!

Perhaps Plumbing, Electrical, or HVAC apprentice would have been a better handle!

Sorce

 

[leatherback]

Chill Hours is a myth

care to expand?

 

[sorce]

care to expand?

Ginkgo.

@ShadyStump , now that's succinct! (I had to look that up last time!lol.)

Sorce

 

[leatherback]

..?

 

[sorce]

@leatherback
This thing has been bothering me for some time, was thinking about it a couple days ago...this just seems like a good time to start the conversation!

If chill hours exist. I believe they exist under current conditions alone and can change. Otherwise, trees wouldn't be able to survive extended periods of warmer or colder.

I think it's a very well put together and extensive "seems like" bit of information, but in the end it's just man trying to define things he doesn't even need to define.

I have no real argument except it can't be true!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

How many years do you think it would take a tree to know it could always take advantage of longer warm periods?

They don't WANT to sleep. They need to.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Important to note that this has to do with Climate. Not pretend climate.

It includes fungal links to the network reading climate change.

Can't be reproduced in a lab.

Sorce

 

[ShadyStump]

We got into the chill hours thing in this thread a while back.

Ever Use Ice To Stimulate Cold Dormancy/Chill Hours

Old nurserymen recommended using some ice on the soil around the crown of a tree to simulate cold dormancy or chill hours, where required. I’m in 10b and got a hold of an eastern lilac. They can’t do well here, not cold enough. I emptied the stinky old ice maker one season a few times a foot or...

www.bonsainut.com

I feel like the general understanding reached was that it's a combination of sunlight hours AND intensity, and temperature (possibly time and intensity here as well, though we didn't get into that in the discussion) that regulate dormancy.

I suppose you would find, after enough experimentation, that it takes different combinations of these to regulate dormancy in different species.

 

[Forsoothe!]

OK, I’ll bite. It won’t work because it’s only incidentally temperature related dormancy. Tapered drought could accompany the reduction in photo period & intensity, but you will have a tree that can’t stand real sunlight and will fry as soon as it sees the light of day. If you intend to keep this indoors year-around, the same way that northerners keep tropicals, I supposed it will almost sorta kind of nearly produce a greatly diminished in vitality JM that will be leggy, rangy, a weakling, and will drop dead unannounced sooner or later.

The utility of winter dormancy is that the preparation for it is a suitable autumn, both of which are free and easy in the right zones. You are making a mountain out of a molehill and will possess a thing which will be a curiosity at best and never really up to par, but go for it.

Be advised that yes, northerers do successfully keep tropicals as houseplants year-around indoors. BUT, there are very few tropical species that are worth the candle, and therein lies the rub. Most tropicals do really lousy and we have to pick-and-choose the right candidate for the exposure we have. It would seem logical that you would have to do the same, like Trident, Hedge, or maybe Shantung Maples. Or even better a Chinese Elm or Mulberry.

 

[leatherback]

I have no real argument except it can't be true!

ok, then it is an argument not worth my time and energy.

 

[leatherback]

I am sorry, but not believing it is true does not make it non-existing.. And I am true discussing open arguments based on opinion, where there is a huge body of proof pointing the other direction. Just too much of this in the world.

 

[JesusFreak]

So you’re telling me that my shimpaku cuttings needs to be outside instead under of a single
Bulb grow light with a humidity dome?

 

[leatherback]

So you’re telling me that my shimpaku cuttings needs to be outside instead under of a single
Bulb grow light with a humidity dome?

well.. It does make life easier that way.

 

[JesusFreak]

well.. It does make life easier that way.

Looking for most effective. Not easier

 

[ShadyStump]

OK, I’ll bite. It won’t work because it’s only incidentally temperature related dormancy. Tapered drought could accompany the reduction in photo period & intensity, but you will have a tree that can’t stand real sunlight and will fry as soon as it sees the light of day. If you intend to keep this indoors year-around, the same way that northerners keep tropicals, I supposed it will almost sorta kind of nearly produce a greatly diminished in vitality JM that will be leggy, rangy, a weakling, and will drop dead unannounced sooner or later.

The utility of winter dormancy is that the preparation for it is a suitable autumn, both of which are free and easy in the right zones. You are making a mountain out of a molehill and will possess a thing which will be a curiosity at best and never really up to par, but go for it.

Be advised that yes, northerers do successfully keep tropicals as houseplants year-around indoors. BUT, there are very few tropical species that are worth the candle, and therein lies the rub. Most tropicals do really lousy and we have to pick-and-choose the right candidate for the exposure we have. It would seem logical that you would have to do the same, like Trident, Hedge, or maybe Shantung Maples. Or even better a Chinese Elm or Mulberry.

He did say it was just an experiment, for his own pleasure, and acknowledged the risks and impracticalities. I imagine a well refined bonsai is less the goal than to see what he can make of his situation.

Besides, there are routine successes posted on this forum of people growing in largely artificial conditions. As yet none that I've seen that took on this level of control, but bonsai is as much a science as an art, and this experiment certainly forwards the science. If he keeps it going, perhaps with a variety of species over time, he'll help hundreds with what he learns.

Also, the SciFi nerd in me is really interested for future space colonisation efforts.

 

[Forsoothe!]

He did say it was just an experiment, for his own pleasure, and acknowledged the risks and impracticalities. I imagine a well refined bonsai is less the goal than to see what he can make of his situation.

Besides, there are routine successes posted on this forum of people growing in largely artificial conditions. As yet none that I've seen that took on this level of control, but bonsai is as much a science as an art, and this experiment certainly forwards the science. If he keeps it going, perhaps with a variety of species over time, he'll help hundreds with what he learns.

Also, the SciFi nerd in me is really interested for future space colonisation efforts.

My intention is to participate and hopefully contribute something to think about in an open dialog. I go on record lots of times to state what I think shoulda, woulda, coulda happen so that we can kick things around. Sometimes I get the kicking and I don't have a problem with that. After all, I can still learn new tricks and God knows that hort is not practiced the way it was 50 years ago in a lot of cases because people didn't know that they couldn't do stuff so they did it anyway, introducing the rest of the world to advances that would not have been made if we all only did what the experts told us to do. If the OP is successful and I'm entirely wrong and he posts same here, then maybe I can feel a tiny bit useful as being nothing other than a target! I'd be pleased to be the flagman here, too.