Single Flush Pine Back Budding

AndyJ

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Hey folks.

This might be a one word answer - can you use the same technique on Japanese White Pines and Mugo Pines as you do on Scots Pines to encourage them to back bud? As in, leave all candles to grow throughout the growing season and then cut back the candles very hard in August?

Thanks all,

Andy
 

sorce

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Yes!

Sorce
 

mrcasey

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Adair M

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According to Peter Warren and Ryan Neil, this is incorrect. The specific Bjorn video to which you link is specifically about spring candle pinching. Andy J. was asking about mid/late summer pruning to force back budding.
My experience with a lot of different cultivars of JWP is that they keep their needles only one year. And those one year old needles start to turn yellow, and then brown, starting n mid-summer. That’s when the new needles drop their sheaths.

So, if I were to remove the new growth, I would be cutting back all the alive needles, and leaving only the dying needles on the tree. Sorry, I’m not going there!

Maybe you can get away with that on Scots and Mugo, but cutting off the new foliage on a JWP IN MID-summer is a death sentence.
 

mrcasey

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Questions For Adair

Do you do any pinching/pruning on jwp after spring? That is, do you advocate the spring pinching for balance and shape/late summer cutting for back budding approach?

A Few Observations

Warren and Neil use different methods in their mid/late summer development
pruning for single flush pines. Warren seems to advocate pruning off the entire new year's growth. Ryan Neil advocates leaving several pairs of needles.

I don't have any jwp on their own roots; I just have grafts. My Ko Ko No E, Ibo Can, Glauca Nana,
Aoba Jo, and Hagarumo all still have healthy looking second year needles. Cutting new growth back
to a previous year's dying needles seems like a bad idea to me too.
 

Adair M

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I have both grafted JWP and some on their own roots. I have several Zuisho and Kokonoe that on their own roots via layering. Several of my JWP appear to be seedlings.

They all pretty much drop their one year old needles. Maybe it’s because of my climate, fertilizing, and watering, I don’t know.

I give my pines full sun. They’re in bonsai pots, so their root growth is inhibited. They’re not over potted. All this contributes to moderate candle growth in the spring. Sure, some candles are stronger than others, especially those in the apex.

The approach I take is to pinch the too strong candles to make them match the weaker ones. If a terminal grows more than two new candles, I will reduce them to two in the spring. In the strong areas, I’ll remove the strong candles. In the weaker areas, I’ll remove the weaker “excess” candles. If there are two candles, and one is stronger than the other, I’ll pinch back on the stronger one to have it match the strength of the weaker one. If one branch produces stronger pairs of candles than the others around it, I’ll pinch both candles to have them balance out to be similar to the other candles all around. This is all spring work, done while the candles have just started to create the needles. Doing it at that time allows the tree to heal the pinched tip, and create terminal buds for next season. Waiting until later in the summer could cause a problem... the tree may not produce a new terminal bud.

Some varieties, zuisho and Kokomo, and others, are “dwarf varieties”, and they can produce many small buds at each terminal. I have to go thru them to thin these areas to two shoots.

It’s difficult to teach, “Do this, don’t do this...”. There’s so many variables. The various cultivars vary. Climates vary.

I’ve had to learn what works for me by working my trees.
 

Japonicus

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I just have grafts. My Ko Ko No E, Ibo Can, Glauca Nana,
Aoba Jo, and Hagarumo all still have healthy looking second year needles.
Hello @mrcasey Where did you get your cultivars?
My JWP keeps needles longer than one year as well.
Just curious of your cultivars and your happiness with the grafts.
 

mrcasey

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Hello @mrcasey Where did you get your cultivars?
My JWP keeps needles longer than one year as well.
Just curious of your cultivars and your happiness with the grafts.
I do my own grafting and graft right into the understock root tissue. Several years ago, I bought some high grafted cultivars meant for landscaping from Kigi nursery. I use the Kigi trees as scion donors and my own grafts for bonsai. Next spring I plan on trying to air layer some branches off of the kokonoe's. As I understand it, kokonoe and zuishio are some of the only known cultivars that have a chance of layering.
 

mrcasey

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STILL LOOKING FOR CLARITY

It seems that Michael Hagedorn agrees with Adair on this. It also seems that Hagedorn strongly disagrees with Ryan Neil's and Peter Warren's method for late summer pruning for back bud production on single flush pines. Below is a question and answer with Hagedorn.

Casey says:
November 29, 2020 at 10:04 pm
I’ve seen some practitioners online teach that back budding on many single flush pines (in development) can be achieved by letting the candles fully elongate and gather strength in spring and early summer. When the new growth hardens off, it can be cut back either entirely or left with only a couple pairs of the current year’s needles. Do you agree with this method? Does it work for both p. parviflora and p. sylvestris?

crataegus says:
December 4, 2020 at 8:35 am
That technique may work on a young or very vigorous in-development plant, though I’d be cautious of using the complete removal of shoots as a maintenance technique for old trees. I do not use it myself. You can get a lot of budding on the plant, needle buds and the like, if the tree is young enough / vigorous enough, as it must produce a bud, or die. If the tree is an old established bonsai it might just choose the later option…hence I would be very hesitant to use this on single flush pines of any sort. Leaving some needles as the second option would be safer, but it’s still a very strong technique, and is not used in Japan for old tree maintenance.
 

sorce

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I've worked more in the realm of what Adair is doing, except I'll attack the buds before they have needles, as soon as they are individual.

This year, for the first time, I did the heavier cut after growth, and I'm not happy with the resulting buds. Too many, wrong directions, poor health of.

So I have to remove a bunch of buds, to use stuff in poor condition. Failing to see when this would ever be useful.

Before, health allowed natural backbuds to be stronger, and in an unrushed, correct outward direction.

Sorce
 

MichaelS

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Hey folks.

This might be a one word answer - can you use the same technique on Japanese White Pines and Mugo Pines as you do on Scots Pines to encourage them to back bud? As in, leave all candles to grow throughout the growing season and then cut back the candles very hard in August?

Thanks all,

Andy
Yes. In the early stages of development, it is preferable (according to at least one Japanese author) to prune long new shoots in summer rather than pinch candles as it increases the strength of the tree young tree. The tree must be healthy and vigorous or you will only set it back and you must cut back leaving a good lot of needles. I have done this to a limited degree and obtained back budding on JWP. Certainly on Scotts pine it works very well. Mugo? Probably. Also, no doubt you will get a stronger response on grafted white pines. In contrast to Adair's experience, my white pines shed their 2 year old needles but my temps do not get very low.
 
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