Skipping JBP decandling

[WNC Bonsai]

This coming spring I plan to repot my small shohin size JBP. It has been in a pond basket since before I got it a couple of years ago and I have no idea what the roots look like and since the basket is starting to crack apart it needs a new pot. So I assume the best time to repot is just as the buds start to swell and new root growth is beginning. Given the disturbance of repotting I also plan to skip decandling this year to give it time to recover, plus it has been decandled for at least the past two years that I have owned it.

So here is the real question. If I skip decandling this year then I expect those that pop this year will extend quite a bit so I will have a bunch of longer branch ends on top of my more compact and ramified tips. So in subsequent years what is the best strategy for getting it back into a more compact package? I am hoping that by letting the candles extend this year I will get more back budding and can simply prune back the extended growth from this coming year. Is that the best strategy for recovery after skipping a year?

 

[namnhi]

This coming spring I plan to repot my small shohin size JBP. It has been in a pond basket since before I got it a couple of years ago and I have no idea what the roots look like and since the basket is starting to crack apart it needs a new pot. So I assume the best time to repot is just as the buds start to swell and new root growth is beginning. Given the disturbance of repotting I also plan to skip decandling this year to give it time to recover, plus it has been decandled for at least the past two years that I have owned it.

So here is the real question. If I skip decandling this year then I expect those that pop this year will extend quite a bit so I will have a bunch of longer branch ends on top of my more compact and ramified tips. So in subsequent years what is the best strategy for getting it back into a more compact package? I am hoping that by letting the candles extend this year I will get more back budding and can simply prune back the extended growth from this coming year. Is that the best strategy for recovery after skipping a year?

Letting the candles grow this year will not create any back budding this year... you might get it after you decandled these long shoots next year. I have a few that is decandled last Aug that have short needle but I feel they are not as healthy so I will not be decandle those this year. Let them grow strongly then decandle it back to the compact part next year and wire them out. I think I have too many branches on mine that I could definitely thin out.

 

[Shibui]

JBP can be pruned back to healthy needles and still get good budding. This means you can allow shoots to extend one year them rather than just decandling the following year prune back below the longer previous season shoots. NB best not to pull old needles the year you miss decandling so there will be plenty of healthy needles for new shoots to grow from.
The downside can be that strong growing shoots might thicken the branches more than desirable.
I have no problem with repotting and decandling in one season. Provided you have good candle growth by decandling time it is OK to decandle so just monitor plant growth and health post repotting.

 

[Adair M]

This is a decision you can’t make in advance. Wait until you see how the tree responds to the repotting. If it grows strongly, you should decandle. If not, then don’t.

 

[coachspinks]

This is a decision you can’t make in advance. Wait until you see how the tree responds to the repotting. If it grows strongly, you should decandle. If not, then don’t.

What should he see in terms of strong growth?

 

[jonf]

What should he see in terms of strong growth?

I'll jump in and say long shoots, long "necks", and long needles; basically the things that need correcting by decandling.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

I'll jump in and say long shoots, long "necks", and long needles; basically the things that need correcting by decandling.

It will be interesting to see if it does behave like that after a repot. I can usually expect to see pretty good extensions of the candles as it is a pretty strong tree and through regular decandling I have gotten the internodes and needles fairly tight but this will be my first repot so am not sure how it will respond. I certainly hope Adair is correct ad it will not skip a beat as skipping decandling may set me back a year in development. Maybe I will post regular photos to document this.

 

[Adair M]

I'll jump in and say long shoots, long "necks", and long needles; basically the things that need correcting by decandling.

Bingo!

If the tree does not grow vigorously, there are things he can do next fall to stimulate back budding for the following year. We’ll cross that bridge later.

But, provided the tree is strong, it should grow well out into the new soil after repotting. Roots growing into new fresh bonsai soil tend to be very strong and vigorous. This tends to stimulate strong vigorous top growth as well. So, I EXPECT there should be strong top growth, and the tree will need to be decandle.

After a couple of years after the open air spaces in the soil mix are full of roots, and the root ball becomes more compact, THEN root growth slows down. When root growth slows, top growth slows, too. Resulting in shorter internodes, and shorter needles.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Bingo!

If the tree does not grow vigorously, there are things he can do next fall to stimulate back budding for the following year. We’ll cross that bridge later.

But, provided the tree is strong, it should grow well out into the new soil after repotting. Roots growing into new fresh bonsai soil tend to be very strong and vigorous. This tends to stimulate strong vigorous top growth as well. So, I EXPECT there should be strong top growth, and the tree will need to be decandle.

After a couple of years after the open air spaces in the soil mix are full of roots, and the root ball becomes more compact, THEN root growth slows down. When root growth slows, top growth slows, too. Resulting in shorter internodes, and shorter needles.

Adair—why not go ahead and share the steps I could do next year to encourage back budding if it does not respond and I decide not to decandle. That way we will have the benefit of your knowledge documented for the future. These are the kinds of tips we don’t often see in the how to books, especially since so many focus on older more refined trees and not small beginner trees like mine. Thanks—Larry

 

[Adair M]

Adair—why not go ahead and share the steps I could do next year to encourage back budding if it does not respond and I decide not to decandle. That way we will have the benefit of your knowledge documented for the future. These are the kinds of tips we don’t often see in the how to books, especially since so many focus on older more refined trees and not small beginner trees like mine. Thanks—Larry

Well, it’s complicated. Involving fall needle pulling, but not pulling the needles that we normally pull. Usually, we pull the old needles, right? Well, this technique keeps the old needles, and pulls some of the new needles. And the ones pulled are the ones at the tip end. You leave the bud, but pull the needles close to the bud. Leave some new needles back farther down the twig. Got it so far? It looks really strange. THEN, wait until the following summer. Then when you “decandle”, you don’t just cut new shoot, you cut back to the place where you pulled the needles!

What this does is force back budding. You might get needle buds on the needles you left on. But more likely is you’ll get new shoots from the base of the twig. This forces new growth back closer to the trunk.

I’ve done it on a couple shohin. I’ve never had to do it on full size tree.

 

[Shibui]

I usually get strong growth following repotting. As @Adair M pointed out, more new roots allows more new growth. So I'd be reasonably confident your tree will grow well enough to decandle as usual.
Same applies to deciduous after repotting.

Well, it’s complicated. Involving fall needle pulling, but not pulling the needles that we normally pull. Usually, we pull the old needles, right? Well, this technique keeps the old needles, and pulls some of the new needles. And the ones pulled are the ones at the tip end. You leave the bud, but pull the needles close to the bud. Leave some new needles back farther down the twig. Got it so far? It looks really strange. THEN, wait until the following summer. Then when you “decandle”, you don’t just cut new shoot, you cut back to the place where you pulled the needles!

What this does is force back budding. You might get needle buds on the needles you left on. But more likely is you’ll get new shoots from the base of the twig. This forces new growth back closer to the trunk.

Not really complicated if you understand how pines respond to pruning. This is the same technique I outlined earlier in this thread except @Adair M has included pulling the new needles.

 

[River's Edge]

Well, it’s complicated. Involving fall needle pulling, but not pulling the needles that we normally pull. Usually, we pull the old needles, right? Well, this technique keeps the old needles, and pulls some of the new needles. And the ones pulled are the ones at the tip end. You leave the bud, but pull the needles close to the bud. Leave some new needles back farther down the twig. Got it so far? It looks really strange. THEN, wait until the following summer. Then when you “decandle”, you don’t just cut new shoot, you cut back to the place where you pulled the needles!

What this does is force back budding. You might get needle buds on the needles you left on. But more likely is you’ll get new shoots from the base of the twig. This forces new growth back closer to the trunk.

I’ve done it on a couple shohin. I’ve never had to do it on full size tree.

Just to add a twist to the same process.
This can be combined with selective removal of the older needles as well. removing top and bottom needles, leaving sections of side needles in locations that buds are desired. Leaving some of the older needles in desired locations encourages buds in those locations. With younger trees under development needles from the previous years are often retained to assist in back budding and creating density closer to the interior. Depending on the age of the tree and previous care routines JBP can retain three or four years of needles if vigorous.
Removing some of the older needles encourages back budding with more exposure to light and keeping a few in select locations encourages needle buds in those locations. The bare areas exposed to more light can still develop adventitious buds.

 

[Adair M]

Just to add a twist to the same process.
This can be combined with selective removal of the older needles as well. removing top and bottom needles, leaving sections of side needles in locations that buds are desired. Leaving some of the older needles in desired locations encourages buds in those locations. With younger trees under development needles from the previous years are often retained to assist in back budding and creating density closer to the interior. Depending on the age of the tree and previous care routines JBP can retain three or four years of needles if vigorous.
Removing some of the older needles encourages back budding with more exposure to light and keeping a few in select locations encourages needle buds in those locations. The bare areas exposed to more light can still develop adventitious buds.

That’s true. JBP are still more likely to pop new shoots at old internodes, but needlebuds do happen.

 

[River's Edge]

That’s true. JBP are still more likely to pop new shoots at old internodes, but needlebuds do happen.

Needle buds happen more often in younger trees under development, not as often on more mature trees. This is a reliable method for younger trees and those still growing vigorously, many factors at play here! Are the trees still in development size containers, still being cared for in a development routine as opposed to refinement with smaller containers and restricted fertilizer. In development it is the newer and younger branches that are usually selected for design once the trunk has reached a certain size, this also plays a role. The amount of extra foliage retained during development also plays a big role! Less likely with weaker trees.
It becomes a balancing act in more ways than one. Which do I want first, density or smaller needles?
A few extra back buds each year really adds up over decades of development!

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Just to add a twist to the same process.
This can be combined with selective removal of the older needles as well. removing top and bottom needles, leaving sections of side….

Hi Folks,
Wondering if this would work now, first month of winter? … or is late fall the only time for this procedure?
Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Shibui]

I remove needles to regulate vigour and growth. It appears to work any time of year but the later it is done the less effective the results come spring as the tree has stored more energy from the needles through fall.
If you are just using needle removal to change where new shoots can emerge then it does not matter when it is done - removing top and bottom is designed to stop new buds from those areas and concentrate new buds at the sides of branches to promote flat foliage pads.

Newer pine growers should understand that decandling and needle removal are techniques used in the final stages of pine development. Earlier, when growth and thickening is the main aim, these techniques may be counterproductive.

 

[River's Edge]

Hi Folks,
Wondering if this would work now, first month of winter? … or is late fall the only time for this procedure?
Cheers
DSD sends

Good Question, it works better in the fall with more time for the tree to respond before growing season. Tree can still respond later and the new buds form later in the season. This does leave them at greater risk for winter damage if opening very late in the growing season. If the tree does not respond until the following season then no problem.
I have made it a regular practice to leave additional needles on for the winter and remove them closer to spring around this time of the year for the PNW. Extra insurance for tougher winter conditions but still the ability to push the limit for needle reduction entering the growing season. Personal preference not a routine specifically taught to me by one of my teachers. Originally it was a suggestion from Boon when I expressed concern over wether I might be removing too many needles in the fall and thus weakening the tree too much.
My reasoning is that partial removal in the fall creates some response and fine tuning later allows me to weaken the tree further due to proximity to growing season and recovery!
Note: If a tree is in early stages of refinement and I am not so familiar with the particular trees condition and history than I would stick to the fall timing. The further along in refinement when my density is coming along nicely and I am focussing more on needle length and compressing pads I lean towards the two stage approach.

removing top and bottom is designed to stop new buds from those areas and concentrate new buds at the sides of branches to promote flat foliage pads.

True, but another major reason is to let light in and expose the branch to aid back budding, also along with wiring down the branch to lessen the Auxin effect on the growth pattern.

Agreed a major issue for Bonsai practitioners is to ensure that you understand which techniques to use during the various stages of development and refinement. When trying to learn via the internet this can be confusing if the thread or video presentation does not clearly stipulate when the technique is applicable. Often in the excitement of learning something new one can tend to apply it when it is not called for.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Well, it looks like @Adair M was right (again), the JBP didn’t skip a beat as a result of being repotted and is now extending buds towards the heavens. So It looks like the tree was strong enough to take both repotting and decandling this year after all. These JBP, tridents, and bald cypress continue to amaze me at how strong they are. I repotted my large trident at the same time as the JBP and it has put out a new set of leaves and shoots that look the best since I got it. I still keep hauling them inside the garage every weekend now that we are riding the freeze/thaw roller coaster.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Here’s an update on the teee. As predicted it responded well to repotting. However because it was decandled the last three years I decided to give it a rest this summer so only decandled one section that I wanted to hold back a bit. That one was decandled in early July—I circled those tips in red. The difference in needle length between decandled branches and those left to grow this year is astounding. They are actually longer than those on my Austrian Black Pine. I may try Adair’s method for the fall needle plucking and see how that works. With all those needles the tree should be plenty strong. At any rate here is an ovwr iew shot of it followed by a closeup of the decandled branches circled in red.