Slow and Easy

[clem]

my only problem with this tree is the pot. It looks like a cake hollowed out to put the tree into it. This tree deserves a very nice drum pot, or a rock pot.

just my personnal feeling, but a drum pot (round pot with no feet) will look too heavy for such a light, thin and "moving" trunk (zig zag). i'd prefer a round flat pot with feet (or a light concave shell) ->


For example, Jan Culek can make very light and natural looking slabs / shells :

| Gallery

www.janculekbonsai.com

 

[River's Edge]

Despite everyones best intentions the key determining factor is the condition of the root ball, Yamadori rarely present convenient shapes for bonsai pots. Particularly those with a base similar to the above tree. Perhaps with repeated work over decades the footage can be modified for a pot, Slabs or custom pots are normally required.
Shore pine growing in this fashion typically have long thick portions to the roots as well and adapt to finer root systems slowly. It can take many years to carve away excess thicker root portions safely as newer smaller roots are produced or grafted.

 

[clem]

Indeed, i was talking about "the exposition" pot if, in the future, the rootball is small enough to fit inside. To not take any risk for the tree, of course, a transition pot is needed

 

[Vance Wood]

I really don't mean to be a smart ass know it all but working that tree to develop the root mass is as important and plausible a project as working the foliage that forms the viewable portion of the bonsai. If that were not so why do we not see Yamadori harvested in a cubic yard of dirt put on display because the roots do not fit into any pot I have? Ryan Neil did a video on this subject about one year ago. Root reduction is elementary in making a bonsaiI If you harvest a tree in need of this treatment why not use a screened in planter or a pond basket. The purpose of those devices are to develop compact and fine root systems.

 

[River's Edge]

I really don't mean to be a smart ass know it all but working that tree to develop the root mass is as important and plausible a project as working the foliage that forms the viewable portion of the bonsai. If that were not so why do we not see Yamadori harvested in a cubic yard of dirt put on display because the roots do not fit into any pot I have? Ryan Neil did a video on this subject about one year ago. Root reduction is elementary in making a bonsaiI If you harvest a tree in need of this treatment why not use a screened in planter or a pond basket. The purpose of those devices are to develop compact and fine root systems.

( important and plausible a project)
Agree on the importance, question the plausibility based on my experience. I collect them and reduce them all the time. So I am fully aware of the process and the time it takes. But the initial selection during collection is critical. Shore Pines from bog environments are unique in the root structure, not as easily or simply adapted which is why many end up on slabs rather than pots. Not at all like removing trees from rock pockets.
Mountain pines, Hemlock and Fir tend to grow in distinctly different circumstances. Although I suspect you are fully aware of why some tree's end up on slabs rather than in pots. Not every collected tree ihas a root structure that is a plausible candidate for a small bonsai pot! Simply the point I was making. And an important one for others who have not collected Shore Pines from bogs to consider!
Here is an example of one successfully reduced and another in the process! Seeing as you seem to question my understanding of the matter!
The root reduction and compaction for the second tree will take approximately five or six years from start to finish in a smaller show pot!

 

[ghues]

my only problem with this tree is the pot. It looks like a cake hollowed out to put the tree into it. This tree deserves a very nice drum pot, or a rock pot.

Couldn’t agree more Vance......it’s a cement (actually Portland Grout) container, which I tried to make look like an island. My available pots at the moment is 2 . We can find Chinese made pots locally and even though they aren’t great they work. This tree was ready to go into something (wooden box was deteriorating badly) and this container was available... like Frank mentioned the root system was very weak and oddly shaped so it will stay where it is for now.

 

[ghues]

Another view and angle......

 

[ghues]

Into a pot, larger than I would have liked but it gives it lots of room. Most of native soil removed from the lower root ball, some of the upper was removed but there were a lot of feeder roots there so didn’t wont to disturb them much.
No plans until this winter.

 

[Colorado]

The container looks nice! Big improvement

 

[ghues]

Missed the edit timeline...another angle

 

[River's Edge]

Better front from this side in my opinion, The trunk movement is more interesting, deadwood and shari better positioned and the foliage mass is better positioned for design at this point. I prefer the movement coming toward the viewer. The vertical jin on the top line of the trunk near the foliage are distracting and add little to the overall composition. I would suggest you reduce/remove and remove the vertical distraction. I would also suggest removing the downward jin to the right sticking down from the trunk. Just suggestions.
Good candidate for careful wiring and positioning this winter if remains real healthy.

 

[ghues]

Better front from this side in my opinion, The trunk movement is more interesting, deadwood and shari better positioned and the foliage mass is better positioned for design at this point. I prefer the movement coming toward the viewer. The vertical jin on the top line of the trunk near the foliage are distracting and add little to the overall composition. I would suggest you reduce/remove and remove the vertical distraction. I would also suggest removing the downward jin to the right sticking down from the trunk. Just suggestions.
Good candidate for careful wiring and positioning this winter if remains real healthy.View attachment 369535

Thanks for the ideas Frank. I understand your thoughts on the visual effect on the dead branches near the apex and the downward Jin.......but to me it’s an integral part of the story that this tree has faced, struggling to survive. To me, doing that to this tree would be sanitizing it rather than enhancing it. Very old trees have stages of decay which this tree has and IMHO evokes old age with all the Jin’s and dead branches, I will let them age and further decay as time goes on....except perhaps that downward one. While repotting I held it in a Cascade position and wondered...hhhmmm could work lol.

 

[River's Edge]

To me, the trunk is ample evidence of the struggle to survive, Jin on conifers is such a short lived aspect of the struggle that I do not view it as always needed to tell the story. Nature has a clear tendency to remove dead branches rather quickly in most cases. The older the tree the fewer the dead branches remain in most cases. Particularly the thin stubs of young shoots that never form on old wood. Keeping them actually ages the tree as relatively young in age despite the struggle evident in the trunk. A clear contradiction to the portrayal of age.
I do think the other remaining jin complement the natural trunk movement and add to the story, rather than take the eye away from the flow and movement of the tortured trunk. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[ghues]

To me, the trunk is ample evidence of the struggle to survive, Jin on conifers is such a short lived aspect of the struggle that I do not view it as always needed to tell the story. Nature has a clear tendency to remove dead branches rather quickly in most cases. The older the tree the fewer the dead branches remain in most cases. Particularly the thin stubs of young shoots that never form on old wood. Keeping them actually ages the tree as relatively young in age despite the struggle evident in the trunk. A clear contradiction to the portrayal of age.
I do think the other remaining jin complement the natural trunk movement and add to the story, rather than take the eye away from the flow and movement of the tortured trunk. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Hi Frank....agree to disagree .....as we both know that we often see things differently based on our personal background and experiences.
One point of clarification- The decay and removal of dead branches on conifers in nature is directly related to the species (and to a lesser degree climatic conditions), Hemlock, balsam for example don’t last as long as other species .... like Douglas fir and ones that last longer are western red Cedar or yellow Cw....the older they get the more phases of decay can be found on that individual. I cruised timber for 7 years and you wouldn’t believe how many decay factors there are for our BC conifers and different species have different factors and ranges of decay.

 

[River's Edge]

you wouldn’t believe how many decay factors there are for our BC conifers and different species have different factors and ranges of decay.

Agreed, I also have spent decades in the woods and was born in BC traipsing the forest and streams for fishing and collecting.
The concept of variation in decay is important to bonsai design and understanding the proper use of deadwood with bonsai.
But I am also of the firm belief that just because it occurs in nature, that does not necessarily equate to aesthetically pleasing for bonsai design. The concept of small jin's not remaining for longer on older pine trees is not just my idea, rather a common principle of design and science of wood type mentioned in many texts and taught by professionals with respect to conifer design. One of my favourite reference texts is Bonsai Aesthetics, by Francois Jeker, published in 2006.

He discusses at length the use of deadwood in design.

One of the main principles determining the type of deadwood suitable to use on a species is the hardness of the wood. With only the very hardwood being left with slender jinned branches. I have never considered Pine to be a hardwood let alone a very hardwood.
Jeker also prefaces his discussion with the following comment. " Among Bonsai amateurs, there are two groups who have very divided opinions, the first group violently abhors the presence of deadwood on a bonsai, the second make a systematic and excessive use of it. Nevertheless it is a natural phenomenon on conifers or deciduous trees having hardwood. All one has to do is take a short walk in the mountains to be convinced of this. According to the hardness of the wood, each species of tree will have a different deadwood. Wood of average hardness will result in a hollow trunk. Hardwood will result in a hollow trunk and large jinned branches. Very hardwood will result in a hollow or deadwood trunk and jinned branches even the most slender ones."
His discussion on determining the type of deadwood to use in design based on species and age is very interesting.
Just some additional information for those monitoring the discussion to consider.