So, I guess I'm doing a JBP-in-colander study…

parhamr

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I have recently acquired 26 Japanese Black Pine seedlings and 15 colanders. The seedlings are from Weyerhaeuser and Forest Farm. The colanders are 10" plastic "wash baskets" from Amazon.

Jonas Dupuich is inspiring and I hope to replicate these results: https://bonsaitonight.com/2014/03/25/in-praise-of-colanders/

Today I just finished transplanting the 6 seedlings from Forest Farm. I'll get to wiring all 26 next year. This thread will track my progress and results.

IMG_0674.JPG

IMG_0675.JPG

Once I make some more room these will be up off the ground. I have a lot of seedlings to distribute to friends and peers right now ;)
 

Adair M

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The problem is, these aren't "seedling cuttings". Jonas always starts with doing cuttings.

Your trees will have a long first internode from the nebari to the first branch. Doing the seedling cutting procedure eliminates that issue.

If you're going to spend a decade growing young JBP out, start off right with cuttings.

See Jonas' blog.
 

parhamr

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@Adair M Hello! Welcome to my thread. Thanks for telling me I’m doing it wrong. If you read my post, then you’d see I’m quite aware of his blog.

Many of the 26 JBP show first nodes anywhere from 2–4 inches above the root base. I’m also comfortable with grafting.

I like challenges and have been horticulturally very successful. Please ride along with me over these upcoming years.
 

Adair M

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@Adair M Hello! Welcome to my thread. Thanks for telling me I’m doing it wrong. If you read my post, then you’d see I’m quite aware of his blog.

Many of the 26 JBP show first nodes anywhere from 2–4 inches above the root base. I’m also comfortable with grafting.

I like challenges and have been horticulturally very successful. Please ride along with me over these upcoming years.
I saw you followed Jonas' blog. That's why I was surprised you weren't doing the seedling cuttings.

Eric, in his thread "a few pine seeds 6 years later" also described doing the cuttings.

Good luck with your project!
 
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Sounds so much fun. The Stone Lantern book on pines shows a Japanese grower doing something very similar I guess he gets a much longer growing season in Japan compared to the UK ho gets fantastic growth super quick.
Have fun and good luck
 

Adair M

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Sounds so much fun. The Stone Lantern book on pines shows a Japanese grower doing something very similar I guess he gets a much longer growing season in Japan compared to the UK ho gets fantastic growth super quick.
Have fun and good luck
Yes, that's the article that starts with the seedling cuttings!

It is also helpful to know that article was originally translated from Japanese to Spanish. And then from Spanish to English. So, there are likely mis-translations, so while the basic concept is valid, there may be some errors in the minute details. For one, no one has been able to duplicate the development of the trees in the time frame as indicated. And not everyone's' seedlings turn purple.

So... take it for what it's worth!
 
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Anthony

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Having done hardwood cuttings, and in a year got up to pencil plus thickness, in a clay pot.
I would say the article is not too far off.
The images were measured for pot size and then we tried to duplicate.

The difference is we stayed with silica based gravel 5 mm and by volume less than 1/3 aged compost.
In fact this year a few were cut back to 4" in height to restart for trunk thickeniing, whilst keeping the
buds low.

Now does anyone have an idea of what a good deal of fertiliser is ?

So I say - Go Parhamr Go !
Good Day
Anthony
 

Mike Corazzi

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Gotta confess.

I have read numerous "colander" posts but never once realized that it was such a simple concept.
...I... thought it was burying colanders in the GROUND and wondering WTF?

NOW,.. I "get" it.

Too simple for a OCD gink like me.

BUT.... I gotta confess AGAIN.... I am too fond of POTS to do it.

Gleep.... :oops:
 

parhamr

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@Mike Corazzi some people do that burying trick and claim it works well, but I’ve never seen much as far as results go. Pots are beautiful, but I recommend giving grow pots and/or colanders a season or three of trials and you’ll see exactly how beautiful the roots can be :)
 

Eric Group

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The problem is, these aren't "seedling cuttings". Jonas always starts with doing cuttings.

Your trees will have a long first internode from the nebari to the first branch. Doing the seedling cutting procedure eliminates that issue.

If you're going to spend a decade growing young JBP out, start off right with cuttings.

See Jonas' blog.
I feel like you are coming on way too strong as usual, And you act as if only one technique is acceptable for growing JBP from seed.

what if he wanted to grow larger trees? Why would there be any requirement or need to have nodes close to the nebari?

Second- seedling cutting is not the only way to get low nodes on JBP seedlings. You can see in his pictures there are seedling in his group with the first nodes clearly visible an inch or two above the roots... I grew a couple dozen JBP from seed last year and having never done the seedling cutting technique, I was a bit timid and just removed the tap roots, leaving radial roots on most... I also kept them in pretty small pots which slowed the growth a bit and every one of them has new buds popping within the first inch off of last year's growth. I am transferring them into larger colanders and wiring this Spring, and most are pushing candles hard... I plan on doing some smaller trees with the, because the low nodes, but none were "seedling cuttings" in the way described in Jonas' blog... the only ones I tried like that did not make it.

I know you jump on board with all things Boon/ Jonas but there is always more than one way to skin a cat... if I can get low nodes on JBP seedlings the first time I ever tried to grow them without doing the seedling cutting technique then it definitely is not hard to do.

Implying that there is a "problem" or that someone isn't doing something "right" because they are doing it differently than someone you know is.. well it just came off as rude... and it is terribly closed minded. Personally I don't think at this point you can say whether anything he did was "right" or wrong. JMO

No offense, just saying I think you were a little over the top man...
 

Adair M

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I feel like you are coming on way too strong as usual, And you act as if only one technique is acceptable for growing JBP from seed.

what if he wanted to grow larger trees? Why would there be any requirement or need to have nodes close to the nebari?

Second- seedling cutting is not the only way to get low nodes on JBP seedlings. You can see in his pictures there are seedling in his group with the first nodes clearly visible an inch or two above the roots... I grew a couple dozen JBP from seed last year and having never done the seedling cutting technique, I was a bit timid and just removed the tap roots, leaving radial roots on most... I also kept them in pretty small pots which slowed the growth a bit and every one of them has new buds popping within the first inch off of last year's growth. I am transferring them into larger colanders and wiring this Spring, and most are pushing candles hard... I plan on doing some smaller trees with the, because the low nodes, but none were "seedling cuttings" in the way described in Jonas' blog... the only ones I tried like that did not make it.

I know you jump on board with all things Boon/ Jonas but there is always more than one way to skin a cat... if I can get low nodes on JBP seedlings the first time I ever tried to grow them without doing the seedling cutting technique then it definitely is not hard to do.

Implying that there is a "problem" or that someone isn't doing something "right" because they are doing it differently than someone you know is.. well it just came off as rude... and it is terribly closed minded. Personally I don't think at this point you can say whether anything he did was "right" or wrong. JMO

No offense, just saying I think you were a little over the top man...
Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. My writing style can come off too blunt.

The OP was the one who mentioned he was following Jonas' lead. And I know Jonas does the seedling cutting procedure. So, I was wondering why the OP didn't. No big deal.

Boon and Jonas didn't invent this process, it was first published in Bonsai Today, and is included in the Stone Lantern "Pines" book.

So, my use of the words "problem is" apparently ruffled some feathers, and for that I apologize. Sometimes phrases we use in everyday speech can be misinterpreted.

Good luck with the pines!
 

sorce

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FWIW...

I went looking for pictures but couldn't find it, anyway, I'm hip to seedling cuttings....
Always figured it a good idea.

Then I saw a wicked perfect Nebari on like a 6-8inch trunk, in person, and somewhere around then decided it not only a good idea....

But the only idea!

And not just for pine!

Banter all day about the node length...

We might as well be talking about why the branch structure isn't perfect....
Or decandling!

Cuz node length Ain't the beginning!

Start at the beginning!

How about the fact that seedling cutting is getting you a jump on something way more important than effin node length!

The Friggin Nebari! A basal flare!

Not to mention.....
No matter how big the tree is going to be............

It's going to get there faster, and you are going to have WAY more control having them low nodes!

We say....you can always cut something off, but we can't glue it back on!

This is the same thing!

Except we are not even producing the branches to cut off!

That is highly limiting.

Forgive me, but while their May be more than one way to skin a cat.....

This has nothing to do with the skinning part, it's about growing the cat to skin.

If you're into skinning cats....
Why wouldn't you want to grow them as efficiently as possible?

The pros of seedling cutting outweigh the cons in every instance.

IMO.

In my goal to prove Adair wrong....

I have mostly found that he is always right.

Definitely always, when it comes to JBP.

You can't take blunt SOB talk with a grain of salt....

Rather....

Take them with many grains of salt, put them in an hour glass.....

And look thru the time....

The fastest path will be clear.

Sorce
 

Anthony

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Folks,

we used the seed provided by Dallas Bonsai and Bonsai of Brooklyn [ Amazon ] or is that Bonsai Boy?

Observations
- 30/ 32 or so seeds - germination [ no cold needed ] just the soak ] -> 25 to 20 seeds or so germinating

Later on about 5 would be weaker or weird, usually they die on their own .

Out of the 20 or so left about 10 to 15 would be super growers and the rest slower.

Result -

focus on the super growers and propagate from them.

In steps Aus Bonsai and we start to grow - hardwood cuttings - very simple yet only 1 once in a while take.
Fair enough in 10 years we would overload.

More Observations -

Takes 3' of top or all the equivalent growth to get an 1" on a trunk.
Pot must widen not deepen, in fact for - us - 6" / 5 " is the limit of pot depth.
So we have these flat saucers of clay, growing those that like to grow taller.

Soil mix has never failed.

Lots of sun, even for the cuttings.

So if the results in the Japanese magazine Bonsai Today are evading you, try the better seed in the germination.

As to surface roots, thus far the trees are doing it naturally, seems to be the J.B.pines genetic thing to create the
eagle's claw.

Thus far easy plants to keep healthy.

Other Observations -

Seeds from other suppliers on Amazon.

Waste of time, poor germination and the seedling grow poorly. Example - out of 40 seeds - germination poor - 20
or so, and the seedlings are puny, scanty of needles, 2 years later --------- horrible --------- growth.
So yes, use this type of seed and you get scanty needles, weak trunks, and very poor growth.

Statement -
It is obvious the Japanese seed company provides excellent material to work with.
[ Need an image of the seed pack ? Should be one around somewhere if yo need to see ]

__________________________________________________

Our focus deals more with ramification and needle size.
In the Tropics, the J.B.Pine is vigorous and next test is to see how our version of shorter days and cool weather
affects the needles.
Let you know in October to February.

Now to figure out ------------ how much is a lot of fertiliser.
Our aged compost can trap and hold a great deal of inorganic fertiliser as well as breeding the micro life so
experiment xxx takes place.

BY THE WAY we no longer use seeds, just cuttings.

Good Day
Anthony

* Our seedling as often stout and have a ton of needles, never seen the like on Bnut.

This is what we expect of a 6 month to 1 year seedling

1 year.jpg
 

namnhi

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I feel like you are coming on way too strong as usual, And you act as if only one technique is acceptable for growing JBP from seed.

what if he wanted to grow larger trees? Why would there be any requirement or need to have nodes close to the nebari?

Second- seedling cutting is not the only way to get low nodes on JBP seedlings. You can see in his pictures there are seedling in his group with the first nodes clearly visible an inch or two above the roots... I grew a couple dozen JBP from seed last year and having never done the seedling cutting technique, I was a bit timid and just removed the tap roots, leaving radial roots on most... I also kept them in pretty small pots which slowed the growth a bit and every one of them has new buds popping within the first inch off of last year's growth. I am transferring them into larger colanders and wiring this Spring, and most are pushing candles hard... I plan on doing some smaller trees with the, because the low nodes, but none were "seedling cuttings" in the way described in Jonas' blog... the only ones I tried like that did not make it.

I know you jump on board with all things Boon/ Jonas but there is always more than one way to skin a cat... if I can get low nodes on JBP seedlings the first time I ever tried to grow them without doing the seedling cutting technique then it definitely is not hard to do.

Implying that there is a "problem" or that someone isn't doing something "right" because they are doing it differently than someone you know is.. well it just came off as rude... and it is terribly closed minded. Personally I don't think at this point you can say whether anything he did was "right" or wrong. JMO

No offense, just saying I think you were a little over the top man...
Very well said.
 

M. Frary

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If you're into skinning cats....
It's a lot like skinning raccoons I imagine.
Just stand on their front feet,grab the tail and give a great big pull.
It's not for the faint of heart.
 

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