So many questions...Bristlecone, Sequoia, Black Pine

[mikejungle]

Hello y'all, noob in need of advice. Done a lot of reading over the past few days, but I need a little tailored help.

Got these three seedlings, and I just need general growing advice. Almost don't even care if they're the right shape for bonsai, but wanna make sure I do what I can to see if they do.

L-->R
Bristlecone, Giant Sequoia, Black Pine


Soil:
I've read so many soil threads here, and I decided to follow Adair's advice about sticking to inorganic. Currently unemployed, so this is a super budget, ad hoc setup. I bought a bag of lava rocks, and spent the afternoon pounding that, and some clay balls from IKEA to get what you see in the BC pot. I figured BC woildnt do as well with some organic soil mixed in, so I potted it first.
Not the most consistent size, some large chunks in there, but sieved for fine particles.

BP, and Sequoia, I mixed in some cactus soil, because I realized I was going to run low on substrate.

So...acceptable, or do I need to amend the setup? I can spend a little more if necessary, just want to know if it's good enough, at the moment.

Weathering:
Where the heck do I put these guys? I read that dormancy is necessary, but too cold could be bad, plus I just potted them...
I got the terracotta pot, because the Lowe's I went to didn't have enough nursery pots. I live a little north of Chicago, and it hit 19 F last night, so I just don't know what to do.

Don't know whether I should stick them in the garage over the winter, keep them indoors at night and outdoors during the day, or just straight outdoors.

Watering: chopstick method ok? Don't know how often it will be, yet. I watered them completely after potting, and they are sitting in the tub draining.

Fertilization: either osmocote or miracle grow? Follow directions? I read that I should wait a few weeks before the initial fertilization after potting, so I'm waiting.

Brown needles: all came in the mail with a few brown needles, but BC has a bunch a little lower. Should I be worried? Should I pick them off or let them fall off? Read a bunch about contributing factors, but it's impossible to tell what contributed to its browning.

Shaping:
Do I even need to concern myself with this at the moment? I know that attention to nebari is important, but I think the 2 gallon pots are good enough, right?
Might transplant the Sequoia if y'all think I need to, but most of the Sequoia I've seen have fatass trunks.
I think they're too young for wiring or pruning, but please tell me if I'm wrong!



I know I have more questions, but this is a hearty kickoff. Thanks in advance for the help!

 

[Vance Wood]

Where you live is almost as important a bit of information as anything else you could say.

 

[mikejungle]

Where you live is almost as important a bit of information as anything else you could say.

Hey Vance, I know it was a long post, but I mentioned that I love a little north of Chicago. Great Lakes to be precise.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Hey Vance, I know it was a long post, but I mentioned that I love a little north of Chicago. Great Lakes to be precise.

Bristlecone and sequoia will be fine... black pine will require winter protection. Bristlecone and sequoia you could probably plant in your back yard and they wouldn't miss a beat. Japanese black pines are almost semi-tropical. They can take a short freeze but don't really do well with a hard (Chicago) long winter. Best bet for the black pine is to find a protected spot to over-winter it.

 

[moke]

I would place them in your garage, do not do any fertilizing until spring.
You want to make sure the soil doesn’t dry out and is not to soaking wet all winter.
I check mine a couple of times a week and shovel some soft powder snow on them often, kind of nature’s auto watering and insulation for the little guys.

 

[mikejungle]

Moke, how do I make sure they don't stay soaking wet? The soil looks so wet right now, and I don't know what pro-active thing I can do to make sure they don't soak.
The snow thing sounds like a cool idea, thanks.

BN, does over-wintering mean the cold dark spot, aka garage?

 

[moke]

Moke, how do I make sure they don't stay soaking wet? The soil looks so wet right now, and I don't know what pro-active thing I can do to make sure they don't soak.
The snow thing sounds like a cool idea, thanks.

BN, does over-wintering mean the cold dark spot, aka garage?

I usually scrape/dig about a 1/2” of top layer of the substrate, you’ll see a difference in color of the substrate containing moisture vs the substrate on the surface that is starting to dry out. Just try and maintain this subtle difference. Don’t set a repetitive water schedule but let the soil tell you when it’s time. I hope that makes any sense?

 

[moke]

You most likely won’t be able to overwater in the winter if the substrate remains in a frozen state, I think more trees in containers are most likely lost in the winter due to underwatering.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Hope advice given is all good. Personally since just planted/no time to recover would give all some protection from prolonged freezing with some mid 20s and higher allowed for all of them.

 

[It's Kev]

First of all, I seriously wish I lived in a cooler place so I could have a bristlecone pine. Second of all, I wish bristlecone pines/seeds were available on my side of the planet.

 

[Rid]

Hey Vance, I know it was a long post, but I mentioned that I love a little north of Chicago. Great Lakes to be precise.

If you put that info in your profile, it is easy to find.

 

[Vance Wood]

If you put that info in your profile, it is easy to find.

Sorry to have missed that direction three paragraphs into a newbie post. I should have known better.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Moke, how do I make sure they don't stay soaking wet? The soil looks so wet right now, and I don't know what pro-active thing I can do to make sure they don't soak.
The snow thing sounds like a cool idea, thanks.

BN, does over-wintering mean the cold dark spot, aka garage?

The bristlecone and sequoia are cold hardy, which means that once they are dormant you can place them in a dark place like your garage. Or you could place them in a window well, or just find a spot to mulch in their pots in your yard. The important thing is to never let them dry out. They won't be using any water, but the roots can't dry.

The Japanese black pine I don't think will go fully dormant. I'd like to hear someone else up north share their experiences, but if it were my tree I would leave it outside until it started to drop below freezing at night, and then move it indoors into a sunny window. I don't think they will survive a long period of winter dormancy with extended below freezing temps.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@mikejungle
Welcome to BNut, if you stick with through the first few disasters that we all had when we started, you will have started a great, life long hobby.

I live in Zion, just north of Waukegan, east of Gurnee, so I am probably less than 20 miles from you. I don't want to be ''Debbie Downer'' but your trees have a less than auspicious chance of getting through this winter. As Peter Tea said to me and the rest of the AAC, ''if Californians had to do what we have to do to get through our winters, nobody in California would raise bonsai". The Chicagoland climate is brutal.

But I will help you the best I can to figure out something to give your trees a the best chance of survival. Each of your trees have fairly different growth habits. But all need a winter dormancy. A key point, that took me years to finally believe it is a ''good enough to be useful approximation'' is that if you keep the temperature below 40 F, for all intents and purposes the metabolism of the trees is so slow that they can be stored in the dark. Believe me, it is true. Your pines and sequoia will be fine if you put them in the garage if you can keep the garage below 40 F. At this point a cheap thermometer is a good investment. Put it next to your trees. Jot down your temperatures so you don't forget. Check mid day, to see the high temp and late night or early morning to see the low. Even if this batch of trees perish, the temperature data will help you next year when trying to figure out where to keep your trees. Also be concious that the outside wall will be colder than the wall against the house. Get data on both areas, choose the one that stays below 40 F. Because you repotted so recently the garage is the only option. Next year the bristlecone should be outside, and sequoia will need the garage. We'll talk about the black pine, but probably it will need the garage.

Perfect storage temperature would be below 40 F and for freshly repotted trees above 28 F. Above 32 would be ideal, but as long as you keep the garage above 23 F all winter they should all be okay even though they were freshly repotted.

Soil - from the sounds of it, your soil mix basically is good. You got the idea. I would have skipped the cactus mix for the bristlecone pine, but this is not a serious issue. I would not change it. The sifting to remove fines is the key to making any potting mix perform better.

IF at all possible, do not repot any of the trees for 2 growing seasons. They need to get some growth and recovery time. Bare root shipping an repotting is quite traumatic. Contact me via PM (private message through BNut) and I will make sure you get some inexpensive pumice & other ingredients to add to your potting mixes in the future.

Watering - the best water meter is the human finger. Dig in at least the full depth of your fingernail, use this to ''calibrate'' the bamboo skewer system by comparing to the look of the skewer. If your plant collection is small, just hefting the pots you will know by the weight whether they are wet or dry. Use your finger to calibrate your sense of heft. After some experience, just tilting the pot a little, the weight will let you know where you are at. Water quality of Chicagoland ''Lake Michigan'' tap water is excellent, good for most species, most genera. Lake Michigan water is about 180 ppm Total Alkalinity as Calcium Carbonate, and the total dissolved solids are about 225 to 240 ppm by weight. Jot this down, you may never need to know it but when you do need it, you got it. Medium hardness. Well water in the northeaster Illinois area tends to run 600 to 1000 ppm total dissolved solids depending on how deep the well is. This would be considered hard water, and could cause problems for some species. With well water you would be best using collected rain water as often as you could. Though well water is better than no water or purchased bottled water. Water twice with rain water, once with well water is an okay plan if summer is too dry to collect enough rain water for all the watering. Lake Michigan tap water is good enough I don't bother collecting rain water. ''Another useful approximation''.

Fertilizer - you are correct, your trees will not need fertilizer until spring. Mira-acid, Miracle grow are great as soluble fertilizers. Osmocote - it is something I have used, but there are some tricks to using it. We can talk about this later. Keep it, if is already on your shelf. Some recommend organic fertilizer, I personally prefer the inorganic water soluble. There is no right or wrong here, just different techniques. The best thing about soluble inorganic fertilizers is that you can precisely control the timing of fertilizer applications. The MSU formulations of inorganic fertilizers are far superior in terms of total nutrition to any organic and the majority of brand name fertilizers. Again, more later, got all winter to chew over this topic.

Brown needles - don't worry. most likely normal. If they fall off easy just pick off and discard. Leave if they don't pull away easy. Sequoia may or could turn a bronze color for the winter. The bristlecone might also. This is normal. Some trees have a dramatic color color change to their needles, some don't. Some junipers turn purple, some stay green. It varies. Because of the color change if the needles don't easily pull off just leave them, it could be normal winter bronze color.

Shaping - not now. Never wire a tree AFTER repotting. The tree needs to get re-established and roots need to firm the tree up in the pot. The jostling of wiring can break brand new root tips setting the tree back further. So no wiring now. Probably late summer, or autumn, or early winter 2019 will be the first time you want to wire or even begin to consider shaping. Often wiring, shaping, pruning can be done just before repotting. This varies depending on the health of the tree.

Okay, enough for one post. I'm going to pour myself a cup of coffee, and I get back later to you on your species choices.

 

[0soyoung]

Hardiness and dormancy aren't the same things. Cold hardiness is how effectively the plant can sugar up and dry out cellular tissues so those fluids won't freeze (ice crystals will puncture cellular membranes - sugar is antifreeze). Giant sequoia is reportedly hardy to USDA zone 6 (-5F/-21C), pinus thunbergii to USDA zone 5 (-20F/-29C), p. longaeva to USDA zone 4 (-30F/-32C), and p. aristata to USDA zone 3 (-40F/-40C) - the usual caveats of one zone warmer in pots, etc., apply.

Evergreen species must cope, in some way, with the fact that the rates of the enzymatic reactions in photosynthesis decrease with temperature, but light is adsorbed at pretty much the same rate. This means bright light in cold winter damages/degrades the photosynthetic apparatus. ... [skipping ahead to the relevant point] ... It is a good idea (though maybe not necessary) to shade conifers in winter. I'm not sure that complete darkness is, however. Many alpine species compensate for this by adding xanthophylls that divert adsorbed photons away from the photocenters - the foliage of these turn yellow-ish in winter (p. parviflora is an example). Other species use anthocyanins to accomplish the same end and foliage acquires red-ish tints (junipers are an example).

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I don't feel like doing chores, so I will keep typing.
@mikejungle
A minor point, but this note will point out the problem with common names. You used the common names for your trees, for the giant sequoia, there is no mistaking which tree you mean Sequoiadendron gigantea. Scientific names are important though. The beauty of learning and using scientific names is that they usually are very precise as to which species of plant they are referring to. Try to use them at least once in a post about a tree, so that we know which tree you are talking about.

Bristlecone pine. There are three species of pines, growing in different areas of the USA, and each has a different winter hardiness. Pinus aristata is the Rocky Mountain Bristlecone pine, as 0soyoung said, hardy to zone 3, -40 F. Second is the Great Basin Bristlecone pine - Pinus longaeva found in Utah, Nevada and eastern California. The grove od Ancients in the White Mountains is this species. P. longaeva is listed as zone 5 in Sheffield's seed. The third bristlecone pine is Pinus balfouriana, sometimes called the foxtail pine, or foxtail bristlecone pine. It is only found in a narrow range in the Sierras of California. It is listed as only being hardy to zone 6. So you can see, the scientific name is useful in sorting out confusion. We need to know which one of the three species you have before winter 2019, the species name will tell you whether it should be out in the yard, or in the garage next winter.

Bristlecone as bonsai are a challenge. (all 3 species) They are difficult to keep alive, especially in low elevation. There are a few being used as bonsai and growing well in the Denver area, but I know of only one or two trees in the ''flatlands'' of the Chicago area and don't know if they are still alive. Biggest issue is high humidity. Where the bristlecones come from the air is extremely dry. Humidity rarely gets up over 80% for more than a few hours in the middle of the night. The minute the sun is out, the high elevation thin air heats up dramatically and dries out as it does so. In the ''flatlands'' bristlecone pines can become vulnerable to all manner of fungi and bacteria and water molds during our warm humid summers. Often by the time you notice that the tree has caught something, it is already too late. Prophylactic fungicide spraying has limited usefulness, no fungicide covers all the lowland species of disease that the bristlecone is susceptible to, and if you start dosing for everything you are likely to kill of beneficial mycorrhiza and doom the tree anyway. So best is to just be aware that the bristlecone needs to be put in a location that gets sun from sunrise to sunset and is up, best on a stand, up above the surrounding foliage, so it gets constant breezes. Don't crowd other pots around the bristlecone. It needs good air movement. Especially in hot humid weather. Bristlecone needs to dry between watering. Not bone dry, but needs to get barely moist before being watered again. It will not tolerate weeks of rain. Some move their bristlecones out of the rain beginning the second day of rain. Third problem after humidity and heavy extended rain periods is that in the lowlands, night time temperatures at night through the summer are too warm. At high elevation there often is a 50 degree F temperature drop from the heat of day to the night time low temp. In the mountains it is very rare if the night temperatures are above 60 F. In the Chicago area we usually get a week or two where night temperatures do not drop much below 70 F. During this time the bristlecone will be stressed. It will become more susceptible to fungus the longer the warm nights continue.

So those three factors are reasons that you almost never see a bristlecone as bonsai owned by a grower who lives at less than 6000 ft elevation. They usually expire before they get very far in development. If (or when) your bristlecone pine expires, I suggest you don't try again. Instead try Pinus banksiana - Jack pine, Pinus sylvatica-Scotch pine, or seedlings, on their own roots of Pinus parviflora, the Japanese White Pine, JWP for short. JWP on their own roots are more cold tolerant the JWP grafted onto Japanese Black Pine roots. JWP grafted onto Pinus strobus roots are very good for our area, very hardy, but this pairing is hard to find. Mugo pine P. mugo is another great pine for the Chicago area. So Jack pine, scotch pine, mugo pine, are perfectly winter hardy in our area and all 3 can spend winter out in the back yard without problems. Please accept my advice as intending to help and save you frustration. Pinus strobus, the eastern white pine, EWP the locally native white pine is not a good species for bonsai. The ''idea'' of using EWP is appealing, the mature EWP in our local landscape are outstanding models for bonsai, but the species will frustrate your every attempt at turning them into decent bonsai. There is an example of EWP as bonsai in the Chicago Botanic Garden collection, it is the very, very rare exception. Don't waste your time and space trying to ''learn bonsai'' with EWP. It will frustrate you as much as it has frustrated me. I've had EWP for decades, and they still suck. Don't waste your time. If you want to recreate the feel of a magnificent old EWP, I suggest trying to do so with a JWP or a Jack pine.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@mikejungle
I really don't feel like cleaning the bathroom, I'm not trying to be a stalker, but if I'm typing, I look busy and just maybe someone else will clean the bathroom.

Black pine, I did not see a specific note in your post, is it a Japanese Black Pine, Pinus thunbergii? Or is it the European Black Pine, sometimes called Austrian Black Pine, Pinus nigra? The answer will change where they will winter in 2019.

Pinus thunbergii - the Japanese Black Pine, JBP for short, is the archetype of Pine Bonsai. This is a subtropical pine, that will have 2 flushes of growth a year. Native habitat for JBP is low elevation Japan, and it is found on all the Japanese islands, from relatively cold Hokkaido in the north, south to even the nearly totally tropical island of Okinawa. It is also found in low elevation, sub-tropical areas of China. The most cold hardy ecotype of JBP comes from Korea. The Korean ecotype is somewhat more cold tolerant. Books will say JBP is hardy through zone 5. This is not the experience of most Chicago area bonsai growers. You might get lucky one or two winters, but at least one out of 5 winters here in Chicagoland will kill your JBP dead. They must be protected in winter. A good candidate for the garage in winter. Also, if you are close to Lake Michigan, a long cool spring can cause problems, JBP will not ''wake up'' until weather has warmed enough that 3 or 4 days a week are up into the 80's F. Along the Lake, this might not happen until beginning of July. This means that the occasional growing seasons the JBP wakes up late, you will not have time to force 2 flushes of growth as ''the books'' recommend. So cool summers here, JBP should be treated as single flush pine. So remember JBP needs to be in the garage, every winter.

Pinus nigra - Austrian black pine, or European black pine - often just called black pine. This is a single flush pine. It will have only one flush a year of growth. If you treat it like the books tell you to handle JBP you will eventually kill it. The growing and training techniques are most like the techniques used for the Scotch pine. P. sylvestris. So if your pine is P, nigra, read up on P. sylvestris as bonsai and you will get the preferred techniques. There are plenty of threads on Austrian pine, and Scott's or Scotch pine as bonsai. In Europe where P. nigra is native, it is popular as bonsai, but usually is a collected tree. People collect old, gnarled black pines from the Alps and other rocky landscapes, these are the ones that are used most for bonsai. Nursery material is only occasionally used. Austrian black pine has a heavy robust needle, and a coarse branch structure, it is most often used for larger scale bonsai. Usually trees over 3 feet tall. Only in the larger size bonsai will the heavy, long needles be in good proportions. None the less, they are good for bonsai. They are very cold hardy. I have a couple originally picked up to become understock for grafted trees. I keep them outdoors in the back yard, set on the ground in part shade for the winter, they do just fine.

 

[mikejungle]

Hi Leo, I'm still reading through your first post, but just wanted to say thank you for the information!

As a scientist, I really appreciate all the details you provided. Will probably come back with a few questions once I finish reading.

Oh, quick note, for the bristlecone, I did skip the cactus mix. With my limited knowledge of the species, I figured if any of them needed full inorganic, it was the bristlecone.

Also, do you think the terracotta pot will be ok at sub 32 in the garage or should I get a plastic nursery pot? I know you said I shouldn't repot, but if there's a possibility that it cracks catastrophically, repotting now would be better, right?

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

do you think the terracotta pot will be ok at sub 32 in the garage or should I get a plastic nursery pot? I know you said I shouldn't repot, but if there's a possibility that it cracks catastrophically, repotting now would be better, right?

keep a plastic pot of around the same size or bigger to slip pot later if need be. Better safe than sorry

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Hi Leo, I'm still reading through your first post, but just wanted to say thank you for the information!

As a scientist, I really appreciate all the details you provided. Will probably come back with a few questions once I finish reading.

Oh, quick note, for the bristlecone, I did skip the cactus mix. With my limited knowledge of the species, I figured if any of them needed full inorganic, it was the bristlecone.

Also, do you think the terracotta pot will be ok at sub 32 in the garage or should I get a plastic nursery pot? I know you said I shouldn't repot, but if there's a possibility that it cracks catastrophically, repotting now would be better, right?

Seriously - do not repot. Keep it in the terra cotta. Repot again you are very likely to kill it. Yes, the terra cotta will crack from freeze damage. I have set terra cotta pots inside larger plastic nursery pots to keep them from falling apart after they cracked. Or you could wrap the cracked pot with duct tape. I have done that myself too. Either way, tape is preferable to disturbing the roots a second time in less than 12 months.