soft water source vs hard water

mustt65

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so where i currently live (southern California) we have very hard water in my city. there are times where in mid-summer when you turn on the kitchen faucet you'll smell what seems to be chlorine and i also have to constantly clean calcium build up on our shower and faucets. as my S/O grew up with a water softener the hard water we live with now seems to be bothering her skin. So im actually installing a water softener system in the house. landscape sprinklers will still be hooked up to hard water and i will have the option to use hard and soft water in the backyard.

my question is, can i water my trees with soft water or is there a lack of nutrients needed that are filtered out in soft water. as of now i dont see any problems or affects with the hard water im using now on my trees besides the calcium build up on the rims of my pots and the base of some trees have a white dusting over them from calcium and it really looks unappealing on lets say my Lagerstroemia (crepe myrtle) with the nice smooth light brown bark then the base is all white. are there pros and cons?
 

Traken

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I believe the biggest potential issue is that most water softeners use salt to bind with the extra minerals in the water. I know in gardening it can lead to not only hurting the plants, but essentially salting the soil to the point of not letting stuff grow, but I'm not entirely certain if it will affect bonsai quite in the same way. Have you considered getting something like a rain barrel and using that to water your trees? You might be able to use a water filter of some sort, but I'm not sure if that's convenient for this purpose.
 

WNC Bonsai

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Use the hard water unless you have plants sensitive to the chorine in which case an in-line carbon filter will remove it. The chemicals used for the ion exchange process in water softeners is usually plain old salt which displaces calcium and magnesium. Although most of the salt is flushed out there always is a residual amount that may cause problems. Some also have special iron removal chemicals but if you are on municipal water they should remove that. Use rain barrels for anything that can’t take either, like some carnivorous plants.
 

Michael P

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This also an issue with aquaria. Conventional water softeners use either sodium chloride (NaCl) or potassium chloride (KCl). NaCl is less expensive, but can cause sodium build-up in the water or soil, and plants use sodium only in very tiny quantities. Potassium on the other hand is one of the plant macro-nutrients, so plants can use a lot of it making a build-up less likely. You might need to use a low potassium fertilizer on your trees.
 
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I have hard water and I use an el cheapo camper in line water filter that connects to my faucet. Took car eof all the hard water staining on pots, trunks, and leaves. Also reduces chlorine somewhat but not entirely.
 

Oleg

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Let a bucket of water sit open for a day or two. This was recommended for use in a Gecko terrarium by the pet store.
 

Bonsai Nut

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Make sure your water softener works with POTASSIUM CHLORIDE pellets - not SODIUM CHLORIDE. Many socal softeners will work with potassium chloride - they even sell bags of potassium chloride softener pellets at my CostCo. The double beauty of potassium chloride is that (1) you don't have to worry about sodium buildup and (2) potassium is actually beneficial to your plants.

Don't worry about trace elements - it is extremely easy to supplement in the minor amounts needed by your trees. However you DO need to be aware of your water's pH. All water districts in socal are required to have annual water quality statements on file. Check the water pH that is reported from your water district. Then, get some pH strips and test the water coming out of your tap. If you are like most areas in socal, you are going to have water with a high pH; 8.0 - 8.5 is not unheard of. High pH is what causes a lot of chlorosis issues with landscaping here - the plants simply can't take up iron, maganese and other trace elements if the pH is too high.

Good news is that softening your water will also lower the pH somewhat. How much it is lowered depends on your system as well as the incoming water pH - which is why you should definitely know where you are starting BEFORE you install the softener.
 

mustt65

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as of now looks like ill most likely be sticking to my hard water. i do try to stay away from leaves and truck so i dont get any calcium build up but sometimes thats just hard to do.
 

Bonsai Nut

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Let a bucket of water sit open for a day or two. This was recommended for use in a Gecko terrarium by the pet store.

The only thing this will do is let chlorine degas from the water. If your water district doesn't use chlorine (and perhaps uses chloramine instead like ours) you can wait for a month and you'll still have problems.
 

mustt65

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Make sure your water softener works with POTASSIUM CHLORIDE pellets - not SODIUM CHLORIDE. Many socal softeners will work with potassium chloride - they even sell bags of potassium chloride softener pellets at my CostCo. The double beauty of potassium chloride is that (1) you don't have to worry about sodium buildup and (2) potassium is actually beneficial to your plants.

Don't worry about trace elements - it is extremely easy to supplement in the minor amounts needed by your trees. However you DO need to be aware of your water's pH. All water districts in socal are required to have annual water quality statements on file. Check the water pH that is reported from your water district. Then, get some pH strips and test the water coming out of your tap. If you are like most areas in socal, you are going to have water with a high pH; 8.0 - 8.5 is not unheard of. High pH is what causes a lot of chlorosis issues with landscaping here - the plants simply can't take up iron, maganese and other trace elements if the pH is too high.

Good news is that softening your water will also lower the pH somewhat. How much it is lowered depends on your system as well as the incoming water pH - which is why you should definitely know where you are starting BEFORE you install the softener.
yes i did get the report from the city and we are currently at pH level of 8.2. i did purchase a softener to accommodate for the pH and hardness i received from the annual report. i also did purchase a softner that uses potassium chloride.
 

Oleg

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"The only thing this will do is let chlorine degas from the water. If your water district doesn't use chlorine (and perhaps uses chloramine instead like ours) you can wait for a month and you'll still have problems."
Yes for the chlorine, he said he could smell it. Gecko's fine so it must be chlorine.
 

Bonsai Nut

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yes i did get the report from the city and we are currently at pH level of 8.2. i did purchase a softener to accommodate for the pH and hardness i received from the annual report. i also did purchase a softner that uses potassium chloride.

Rock 'n Roll! I've been thinking about doing it for a while. I have an RO/DI water unit for drinking and ice cubes, but I really want a water softener for... everything else :)

I'll be curious to hear how much your softener drops your pH after you get it installed.
 

mustt65

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Rock 'n Roll! I've been thinking about doing it for a while. I have an RO/DI water unit for drinking and ice cubes, but I really want a water softener for... everything else :)

I'll be curious to hear how much your softener drops your pH after you get it installed.

we currently also have a RO system i purchased from costco only cause it was on sale for $69, originally $230.

ill update what i find out after using the soft water. hoping it does lower my pH some.
 

Bonsai Nut

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hoping it does lower my pH some.

It will definitely lower it because in the process of removing bicarbonates your softener will generate carbon dioxide. It is impossible to soften water without some downward pressure on pH. The question is... how much will it drop? If it drops from 8.2 to 7.0 I will be buying a water softener the following day :)
 

Richardse

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I am rather new in here, and I am facing the same issue. The water in my region is kind of, really hard. I have installed a water softner system a couple of years ago, however the water is way to hard for it, that is exactly why it gets broken once in a couple of months. I really need to find a better softner, or another solution for this issue, as fast as possible. For my plants, I have actually got a good filter, which I got due to the recommendations from kylesgarage.com. It is doing a proper job, and I like it really much.
 

Starfox

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What are peoples thoughts on this?
Seems like a simple solution.

And now I know just how hard my water is it might explain a few issues I've had.
Anyway I'm trialing this method this year, too early to tell yet.
 

hemmy

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What are peoples thoughts on this?
Seems like a simple solution.

And now I know just how hard my water is it might explain a few issues I've had.
Anyway I'm trialing this method this year, too early to tell yet.
I think he generally writes good articles with simple clear explanations. But in my opinion, I think he simplified this too much and it leaves out the importance of the actual alkalinity level of your water and it’s buffering capacity. Many others have posted more intelligent explanations on this site than I have, but here’s a link that links to an article on irrigation water quality.

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/ph-lvl-7-5-on-my-water-is-that-passable-or-hard.40834/post-693509

If your water quality and rainfall are similar to his location then it will probably work for you. If you water has a higher alkalinity, higher pH, TDS, etc and/or you get significantly less rainfall than it might not work as well.

If you are on public water, they should have water quality reports. Post them up in with your average rainfall and let’s science the crap of it!
 

Starfox

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I think he generally writes good articles with simple clear explanations. But in my opinion, I think he simplified this too much and it leaves out the importance of the actual alkalinity level of your water and it’s buffering capacity. Many others have posted more intelligent explanations on this site than I have, but here’s a link that links to an article on irrigation water quality.

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/ph-lvl-7-5-on-my-water-is-that-passable-or-hard.40834/post-693509

If your water quality and rainfall are similar to his location then it will probably work for you. If you water has a higher alkalinity, higher pH, TDS, etc and/or you get significantly less rainfall than it might not work as well.

If you are on public water, they should have water quality reports. Post them up in with your average rainfall and let’s science the crap of it!

Well according to my digital TDS meter today's reading from the kitchen(I know I should use the tap I use for watering) is 1500ppm. This fluctuates though, 900ppm is the best I've seen but this year it has been over 1000ppm consistently. PH is 7.8 to 8.
My Gh was last measured at over 900ppm and Kh about 150-160ppm, I could measure again but don't want to waste my kit on it as I need it.

Not surprisingly given the above, our water company is the only one in the region that not only does not publish any info and does not even have a website. Our town got reported to the EU for unsafe drinking water in the 2000's so seemingly all the cousins pulled ranks and there is nothing to see here sort of thing.

Our average rainfall would be 300 to 400mm a year so not a great deal.

End of the day I'll go with Ph of 8 and water hardness off the scale.
 

hemmy

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Well according to my digital TDS meter today's reading from the kitchen(I know I should use the tap I use for watering) is 1500ppm. This fluctuates though, 900ppm is the best I've seen but this year it has been over 1000ppm consistently. PH is 7.8 to 8.
My Gh was last measured at over 900ppm and Kh about 150-160ppm, I could measure again but don't want to waste my kit on it as I need it.

Not surprisingly given the above, our water company is the only one in the region that not only does not publish any info and does not even have a website. Our town got reported to the EU for unsafe drinking water in the 2000's so seemingly all the cousins pulled ranks and there is nothing to see here sort of thing.

Our average rainfall would be 300 to 400mm a year so not a great deal.

End of the day I'll go with Ph of 8 and water hardness off the scale.
Ouch, that is high TDS and hardness (GH). But not unexpected from carbonate groundwater aquifers in a place called the “White Coast”. Your water is similar to my town’s groundwater source, although we have lower average hardness (GH). Our water is actually a mix of three groundwater and surface sources so it does seem to have some variation. Your rainfall is similar, our average is 386mm/year although this year we only received 86mm. But your climate is generally hotter.

I have been using 5% white vinegar (acetic acid) for azaleas and Japanese maples mixed in a watering can. It does seem to help, along with acidic fertilizers and supplements. I can’t justify the cost of a dedicated Dosatron injection system (yet).

Here is an online site for calculating irrigation acidification: http://e-gro.org/alkcalc/

It is based on the NC State and Purdue University calculation spreadsheet and unfortunately does not have acetic acid.

Using your data of 8 pH and 160 ppm KH (Total Alkalinity) can get you to a target pH of 6.0 and Total Alkalinity of 49.5 ppm using 0.177 ml/liter of 75% Phosphoric acid. (I know, not much help).

I modified the original spreadsheet to include 5% acetic acid. I get 2.53 ml/liter of 5% acetic acid being equivalent to 0.177ml/liter of 75% Phos acid. Of course, it’s not a linear relationship and you can’t use the above equivalence for different pH and alkalinity goals. BIG DISCLAIMER: I’m not a chemist or good at math. So use the vinegar value at your own peril!

Relating it back to your original question, the general location in the UK where he is appears to have an average of 7.25 pH, 289 ppm GH, and 244 ppm KH (Aylesbury South and Thames River water districts, 2019). He’s using 1 tsp per 7 liters of water once per month (0.704 ml/liter). Which using the area water quality is only taking the water to 6.89 pH and 213 ppm KH. So either his water quality is different or the monthly vinegar watering isn’t doing much. His area also gets 714mm total precipitation fairly evenly spread across the year.
 

hemmy

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I modified the original spreadsheet to include 5% acetic acid. I get 2.53 ml/liter of 5% acetic acid being equivalent to 0.177ml/liter of 75% Phos acid.
For reference, attached is the screenshot of my output. You can see the data I used for acetic acid and the calculated amount to neutralize 1 meq/liter of bicarbonate (1.1449 for acetic acid). Seems like you could use that relationship on the AlkCalc meq/L data but I haven’t spent any time looking at that. I’m also not ready to release the modified spreadsheet because it has a flaw and won’t calculate correctly when you try to specify the total alkalinity goal instead of pH goal.
 

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