Soil consideration

[maroun.c]

I have access to the following soils:
Pumice
Clay Balls
and have experimented with olives in straight pumice as well as in a mix of pumice and clayballs. and results was good although the mixture was a bit too dry most of the time.
I will be able to get some seramis and can find pine bark which I prefer to avoid as I've read negative things about it decomposing fast in pots.
can you suggest which mixes from the above to use for below trees im repoting in coming few months:
Olive
Pine
Cedar
Podocarpus
Boxwood
most are coming from bad soil and am afraid will have bad roots.
fir pine, podocarpus and cedars do you think i can get away with a complete barerooting?
thanks

 

[Anthony]

Maroun,

with the exception of the cedar, all of the other trees are
grown in the soil mix I left on your other topic - Clay Balls.

Don't grow cedar.

Also advise against any inorganic that breaks up in soil.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[0soyoung]

The thing that makes bad soil bad is the particles become so small that all the spaces are filled and the roots cannot get the oxygen they need to live --> low air filled porosity.

The desire is that the soil retains moisture as well, so that you do not have to water constantly. And then, it needs to be affordable.

Are bark or wood chips (2 - 4 cm, say) readily available? Either will make an excellent growing medium lasting for 3 to 5 years. Very cheap here and very easily available. With straight bark chips I must secure the tree in the pot for a year or so. If I add something less that the same volume of soil/dirt, it becomes sticky enough that this isn't necessary.

 

[maroun.c]

The thing that makes bad soil bad is the particles become so small that all the spaces are filled and the roots cannot get the oxygen they need to live --> low air filled porosity.

The desire is that the soil retains moisture as well, so that you do not have to water constantly. And then, it needs to be affordable.

Are bark or wood chips (2 - 4 cm, say) readily available? Either will make an excellent growing medium lasting for 3 to 5 years. Very cheap here and very easily available. With straight bark chips I must secure the tree in the pot for a year or so. If I add something less that the same volume of soil/dirt, it becomes sticky enough that this isn't necessary.

I have access to pine bark 2-4 cm size but was told to avoid pine bark ?

 

[0soyoung]

I think it would work great!

As far as I know, the three "problems" with it are

1. roots get stuck in the chips --> only a small issue when repotting (a hobbyist's emotional problem)
2. bark breaks down over time (like all organic media) --> it will last 3 to 5 years before the air filled porosity collapses.
3. fresh bark consumes nitrogen --> fertilize in the first year of use; after that no fertilizer is necessary.
   1. after having been composted for a year, it is a nitrogen and mineral source.

I think it would work very well for you for growing trees (maybe not in shallow bonsai pots). I encourage you to try it next time you are repotting one of your trees that you are keeping in deep nursery-style pots.

 

[maroun.c]

Interesting that u mention growing pots as I was reconsidering my soil for growing pots. I went to a new nursery yesterday and they apparently use regular soil, peat and pumice in their growing pots.

I'm tempted to try different mixes of the following in growing pots as I'm still struggling with root rot from moist soil:
Regular soil
Peat
Pumice
Clay balls
Perlite
Pine bark
Please do share what u use in ur growing pots or advise on proportions of above, my trees will be outside and will get limited shelter from rain.
Thanks

 

[Shibui]

Are bark or wood chips (2 - 4 cm, say) readily available?

2-4 cm seems quite large for potting mix particles. That's 3/4" to just under 2" pieces. Even for large pots that seems pretty big chunks?

Fresh pine bark is a Nitrogen sink. Plants will die unless you are able to supply enough N for the bark and plant.

The mix I use has 3-6 mm composted pine bark and that is very open mix. Mix consists of: 8 parts 3-6mm pine bark, 2 parts propagating sand.
Even using composted bark the mix needs additional fertiliser - especially N and Iron. Each cubic metre of mix gets Granusol' long term iron, 'Blue chip' controlled release Nitrogen, 'Kendon' micronutrient mix, Iron sulphate, dolomite, gypsum and some zeolite.

For ease I use the same mix in grow pots, boxes and bonsai pots and for all species. I always add more controlled release fert before using the mix as the fert added really only counteracts pinebark drawdown and more is needed for good plant growth.
I screen out the larger bark pieces through a 6mm (1/4") sieve for the smallest shohin size pots.

Regular garden or mountain soil can cause problems in pots. Avoid regular soil in pots.
Making potting mix is a science. You can get terrible results if you make your own but don't understand the science of potting mix. The smaller the pots the more critical good mix becomes. Commercial manufacturers design good potting mix. For beginners it makes sense to use a tested formula to take all the guesswork and unknowns out of the equation. I'm sure bags of potting mix are available in Lebanon. You will just need to find a reputable brand that has good particle size. One of our makers sells a mix called 'tub and terracotta' which has good particle size and good nutrient levels. It is at the higher price end but makes excellent bonsai and training pot mix. Some of our members have good results using a mix made for cacti and succulents as it is designed to be free draining.

 

[maroun.c]

2-4 cm seems quite large for potting mix particles. That's 3/4" to just under 2" pieces. Even for large pots that seems pretty big chunks?

Fresh pine bark is a Nitrogen sink. Plants will die unless you are able to supply enough N for the bark and plant.

The mix I use has 3-6 mm composted pine bark and that is very open mix. Mix consists of: 8 parts 3-6mm pine bark, 2 parts propagating sand.
Even using composted bark the mix needs additional fertiliser - especially N and Iron. Each cubic metre of mix gets Granusol' long term iron, 'Blue chip' controlled release Nitrogen, 'Kendon' micronutrient mix, Iron sulphate, dolomite, gypsum and some zeolite.

For ease I use the same mix in grow pots, boxes and bonsai pots and for all species. I always add more controlled release fert before using the mix as the fert added really only counteracts pinebark drawdown and more is needed for good plant growth.
I screen out the larger bark pieces through a 6mm (1/4") sieve for the smallest shohin size pots.

Regular garden or mountain soil can cause problems in pots. Avoid regular soil in pots.
Making potting mix is a science. You can get terrible results if you make your own but don't understand the science of potting mix. The smaller the pots the more critical good mix becomes. Commercial manufacturers design good potting mix. For beginners it makes sense to use a tested formula to take all the guesswork and unknowns out of the equation. I'm sure bags of potting mix are available in Lebanon. You will just need to find a reputable brand that has good particle size. One of our makers sells a mix called 'tub and terracotta' which has good particle size and good nutrient levels. It is at the higher price end but makes excellent bonsai and training pot mix. Some of our members have good results using a mix made for cacti and succulents as it is designed to be free draining.

Thanks for all the info. Can definitely get smaller bark size or crush to smaller size.

Will definitely make sure to fertilize more and add iron when I have bark in the pots. I'll also soak the bark in liquid fertilizer for some time before using. It's weird that it sucks that much fertilizer but that shouldn't be difficult to solve and guess I'll only use limited amounts for a bit if water retention so shouldn't be that bad.

Can you please explain composted bark (sorry for the newbie question ) and do u compost the bark or buy it composted.

You hit the nail on the head with the mountain or regular soil comment. I have killed many trees in the soil they come in or potting soil I got from nurseries here. All of them use mountain soil mixed to different extents with peat. Believe they have worked out altering techniques for it or I'm still not learning how to use it. Even bonsais I bought from here 3 years back from a local seller came in same terrible soil, still guy keeps hundreds if trees alive. I just couldn't. Hence my search for better pot soils.
I went to a much better nursery few days back and they explained that our mountain soil isn't all that bad, they do recognize the issues I faced and explained that they mix soil with peat and add pumice to make it drain more. Quality potting soil isnt available here except for "tourbe" and "terreau" which I believe is peat and peat moss and those are basically used for growing cuttings. They dont drain perfect and I'm experimenting in couple of pots with a mix of those with perlite...

I have found a better potting mix in Dubai, and can get a few bags in coming trips, yet I'd rather use my weight allowance for some seramis that I found there as that is so far the best soil I can find for smaller bonsai trees as I'm.preparing a few.

Am sure with bark, pumice, clay balls I will be able to find a mix that works.
Thanks again for all the explanations

 

[0soyoung]

2-4 cm seems quite large for potting mix particles. That's 3/4" to just under 2" pieces. Even for large pots that seems pretty big chunks?

It works exceptionally well, IMO. I have an 8 foot tall a.p. 'Hogyoku' in a roughly 1 foot deep pot of so-called medium sized landscape bark for about 5 years now. I repotted it into fresh bark and a lesser volume of the older composted bark it was in. It is still doing well. I also have an a.p. 'Hiname Nishiki' now in its third season in nothing but medium sized landscape bark. And I also have a pair of nothofagus antartica getting big in pots of nothing but as well. And I've got a pair of tsugas as well as star magnolias that have been in medium bark plus a lesser volume of garden soil for 2 and 3 years respectively in decorative landscape pots. I've put lots of stuff from garden nurseries and dug from my yard in this 'mix' for a year or so before transferring them to a bonsai substrate. Mixing in dirt/soil makes a mix that is sticky enough that it isn't necessary to secure the tree to the pot in the first year. Logically it would reduce the afp, but it doesn't appear to be significantly.

Fresh pine bark is a Nitrogen sink. Plants will die unless you are able to supply enough N for the bark and plant.

We agree.

fresh bark consumes nitrogen --> fertilize in the first year of use; after that no fertilizer is necessary.

Just a bit of a general purpose chem fert is about all it takes to get through the first year - like a tablespoon to a pot gallon of bark (15 ml per liter-ish).

 

[Shibui]

It works exceptionally well, IMO. I have an 8 foot tall a.p. 'Hogyoku' in a roughly 1 foot deep pot of so-called medium sized landscape bark for about 5 years now. I repotted it into fresh bark and a lesser volume of the older composted bark it was in. It is still doing well. I also have an a.p. 'Hiname Nishiki' now in its third season in nothing but medium sized landscape bark. And I also have a pair of nothofagus antartica getting big in pots of nothing but as well. And I've got a pair of tsugas as well as star magnolias that have been in medium bark plus a lesser volume of garden soil for 2 and 3 years respectively in decorative landscape pots. I've put lots of stuff from garden nurseries and dug from my yard in this 'mix' for a year or so before transferring them to a bonsai substrate. Mixing in dirt/soil makes a mix that is sticky enough that it isn't necessary to secure the tree to the pot in the first year. Logically it would reduce the afp, but it doesn't appear to be significantly.

I see you are talking about quite large pots and trees so larger bark now makes sense. I was still thinking bonsai sized pots.

Can you please explain composted bark (sorry for the newbie question ) and do u compost the bark or buy it composted.

The bark is put in large mounds and mixed with some Nitrogen fertiliser and left for 12 months, possibly turn the heap occasionally to add more air and mix the materials. Bark turns black and is ready to use. Over here composted pine bark is available commercially.
I use quite a lot of potting mix so I find it far better to buy my mix in bulk - 2 cubic metres at a time - from a company that specialises in potting mix. They have all the materials, equipment and knowhow. I just specify the basic parameters and they work out the rest.

Most people can learn to manage any particular mix. Established nurseries often use terrible potting medium but they have adapted their watering and management to suit that mix over many years. Most of us find that a more open, well drained mix is far better.
It is a pity you don't have access to good commercial mix there. I am sure you can find a good combination with those materials you have available. The pumice is a good base for potting mix as it provides plenty of air space as well as holding some moisture. I know that some growers use straight pumice as a potting mix. Some trials with various amounts of bark and pumice should yield something good for your area and your management.

 

[maroun.c]

Thanks for the explanation, will do as explained for the bark and experiment a bit in growing pots.

Got that right about the potting mix used in nurseries. Will search a bit more for a decent potting mix as that would make things easier.

 

[cmeg1]

What I use.I copied from a post I made yesterday...
Proper size bark is good! Especially when repotting every year.
I put many extra drainage holes in bottoms of pots!!!



Soil is working out good

Seems best medium for enhanced root growth before putting in the grow bed this Autumn.
Even trees that were set back a bit and struggling by looks of top growth,I can see the roots filling the pot and using a lot of water quickly.I believe the trees will bounce back next season in the grow bed.

I used guidance from Evergreengardenworks.com for a good soil and it is working very nice!
50/50 perlite/bark.
Although a bit costly,the Classic size Orchiata bark is fantastic along with #3 perlite.
I top dress loose layer of shredded orchid moss.
Honestly would look nice to me even in a Bonsai pot of some depth.Especially when the moss is green.
I water 2 times a day or once.Aeration is great and very moist too.
The link:
Soils for Containers and Bonsai

 

[maroun.c]

Got some bark, nitrogen fertilizer and iron. For nitrogen gertilizer I got urea which has around 46 percent nitrogen.
Should I add some water periodically to speed up the reaction.
As for potting mix I checked few nurseries and all I could find is this and similar peat based products..grain size is rather small so not sure if it works for small trees. I'm afraid itll I'll and choke empty spaces between a larger grain mix..

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Got some bark, nitrogen fertilizer and iron. For nitrogen gertilizer I got urea which has around 46 percent nitrogen.
Should I add some water periodically to speed up the reaction.
As for potting mix I checked few nurseries and all I could find is this and similar peat based products..grain size is rather small so not sure if it works for small trees. I'm afraid itll I'll and choke empty spaces between a larger grain mix..
View attachment 259477View attachment 259478

Don't use that soil (unless you're making compost tea) and don't use urea. Urea is a highly active form of nitrogen, it can damage your plants within hours. It's that stuff, combined with ammonia (also rich in nitrogen) that kills plants when you pee on them.
A little is fine, but there are a lot of cases of lost bonsai trees due to dog piss. Those should tell enough about the dangers of urea and ammonia. Urea is good for moisturizing dry skin though, products containing it work better than the ones that don't.

Try to find nitrate or nitrite, (NO4, NO3) that might be hard to find where you live, because it can also be used for dangerous things; so keep the receipt and always keep the bag close to your plants. In my country, if you buy a little too much of the stuff, the 'secret service' will show up at your door at 4 in the morning, with guns drawn. I know a gardener that it happened to. He was not amused and he is still on the black list of terrorism suspects.

Most all round plant nutrients have the right amount of everything, so it's better to get a pack of one of those.

 

[maroun.c]

Don't use that soil (unless you're making compost tea) and don't use urea. Urea is a highly active form of nitrogen, it can damage your plants within hours. It's that stuff, combined with ammonia (also rich in nitrogen) that kills plants when you pee on them.
A little is fine, but there are a lot of cases of lost bonsai trees due to dog piss. Those should tell enough about the dangers of urea and ammonia. Urea is good for moisturizing dry skin though, products containing it work better than the ones that don't.

Try to find nitrate or nitrite, (NO4, NO3) that might be hard to find where you live, because it can also be used for dangerous things; so keep the receipt and always keep the bag close to your plants. In my country, if you buy a little too much of the stuff, the 'secret service' will show up at your door at 4 in the morning, with guns drawn. I know a gardener that it happened to. He was not amused and he is still on the black list of terrorism suspects.

Most all round plant nutrients have the right amount of everything, so it's better to get a pack of one of those.

Will skip the soil.
Urea was meant to fertilize the bark in a bucket for months before using it with plants. Can I use it for that or better to look for.
Funny always thought we had the upper hand in finding dangerous stuff where I live, would be a bummer not to find nitrates or nitrites
My thought was that during composting in a bucket for months bacteria will grow and change the ammonia in nitrites and then nitrates which would make it a nitrogen source eventually...
No worries will look for nitrates or nitrites and if I can find will just use regular NPK and add iron and use that to fertilize the bark.

I'm.still.jot clear how to compost the bark should I add water and fertilizer in a bucket with the bark for it to compost?

 

[cmeg1]

If you have access to bark and pumice just 50/50
Composting bark seems overkill.
Especially repotting annually.
Who would want composted bark risking soil collapse in there first season?
I just use chemical ferts every watering and bark stealing nitrogen is hardly an issue??