Soil for "Wet Feet"

parvae_arbores

Yamadori
Messages
94
Reaction score
72
Location
Hillsborough, NJ
USDA Zone
6b
I have a couple of collected American larch that are currently in container potting compost that I plan to transfer into a large training pot as a forest. I have been using equal parts akadama, pumice, and lava recently on all my trees but in zone 6B I do not want to be watering 3 times a day when the heat of the summer hits. I have thought about adding shredded spaghnum or leaf mold to the mix in a 50/50 ratio but I was curious if anyone has any recommendations.
 

PimGinseng

Sapling
Messages
30
Reaction score
27
Location
Italy
USDA Zone
8
No expert but I normally look at the soil where they were collected, that gives you an indication.

Of course pots change all, pine bark and part soil with some volcanic rock should be good, volcanic rock also for drainage as a bottom layer.
Don’t keep them too wet, you don’t want the roots to rot keeping it too moist.
Your intention in a group is to fuse the composition/roots.

PS: Love larches, do you have some pictures you can share?

Ciao!
 
Messages
33
Reaction score
11
Location
East Alabama
USDA Zone
7b
Those look great, you could try Bonsai Jack soil. I have been using their universal organic soil for my deciduous trees and tropicals and their organic conifer soil for my junipers and such. I only have to water once a day in summer unless it is just really hot, then I water twice. Once in the morning and once at night. :) I know Peter Chan of Herons Bonsai has a video on soil mixes and he adds some compost to his soil so they don't dry out so quick.
 

PimGinseng

Sapling
Messages
30
Reaction score
27
Location
Italy
USDA Zone
8
The angle is kind of bad, but you can see the center tree next to the fence for size comparison.
@parvae_arbores

Ok they actually look pretty nice, can see a trunk chop and some decent growth after that.
Meaning they were either trunk chopped in the woods waitin, or chopped after they were repotted and them let them grow and you bought/collected them like this.

Being deciduous they should shed needles, just scratch the base with your thumbnail to see if they are still alive, they should be green underneath the bark.
If not discard the tree, it will only be planted to be removed in the future.

Anyways, huge training pot first with all the nutrients needed to bring them up to speed.
 

parvae_arbores

Yamadori
Messages
94
Reaction score
72
Location
Hillsborough, NJ
USDA Zone
6b
Those look great, you could try Bonsai Jack soil. I have been using their universal organic soil for my deciduous trees and tropicals and their organic conifer soil for my junipers and such. I only have to water once a day in summer unless it is just really hot, then I water twice. Once in the morning and once at night. :) I know Peter Chan of Herons Bonsai has a video on soil mixes and he adds some compost to his soil so they don't dry out so quick.
I am a big fan of Peter Chan and I do notice he tends to grow in soils that most of us would not consider to use. In his videos on larches he uses what looks like normal potting soil, I guess I could do that too and just put volcanic rock on top to avoid that capping effect when the soil bakes.
 

parvae_arbores

Yamadori
Messages
94
Reaction score
72
Location
Hillsborough, NJ
USDA Zone
6b
@parvae_arbores

Ok they actually look pretty nice, can see a trunk chop and some decent growth after that.
Meaning they were either trunk chopped in the woods waitin, or chopped after they were repotted and them let them grow and you bought/collected them like this.

Being deciduous they should shed needles, just scratch the base with your thumbnail to see if they are still alive, they should be green underneath the bark.
If not discard the tree, it will only be planted to be removed in the future.

Anyways, huge training pot first with all the nutrients needed to bring them up to speed.

I trunk chopped them when I collected them from the farm where they were growing. I bought a very large and deep pot since they are sensitive to the heat in my area. The reason I am writing about wet feet is the Nick Lenz book specifically calls this out for this species and I don't want them water stressed while I am trying to develop the shape of the group since it will take longer than I want it to.
 

PimGinseng

Sapling
Messages
30
Reaction score
27
Location
Italy
USDA Zone
8
I trunk chopped them when I collected them from the farm where they were growing. I bought a very large and deep pot since they are sensitive to the heat in my area. The reason I am writing about wet feet is the Nick Lenz book specifically calls this out for this species and I don't want them water stressed while I am trying to develop the shape of the group since it will take longer than I want it to.
Got it!
Thank you for replying so quickly, in that case I would just rake them out leaving at least 1/3 of the original soil.

Base layer of volcanic rock soil, assemble them and put back the original soil you have raked out all around them.

If they were happy they still be happy, remember to keep them stress free (out of direct sunlight) for a couple of weeks (it’s like when the wife turns on the lights on Sunday morning when you’ve worked all week, you don’t want that 😂)

Think about developing later, repotting is stressful enough.

Ciao,

P.

PS: No tree species likes wet feet
 

PA_Penjing

Chumono
Messages
762
Reaction score
1,208
Location
Bethlehem, Pennsylvania
USDA Zone
6b
Normally wouldn't bother giving my soil mix on here, but we're in close proximity and both 6b zones. I use orchiata pine chips and black lava. It's expensive but half the price of aka/lava/pumice mix. If you went that route, 40/60 pine to lava mix (or 2:3) would probably be perfect for larches in our area. at least based on my care/exposure/history. If you simply want to amend what you're already using then I'd say just add in the pine bark chips 1:1:1:1 to start. it will make the mix much more retentive. I specifically recommend orchiata blend because in my experience there's very little break down or problems. plus the 1/8th inch size they sell is sifted very nicely
 

parvae_arbores

Yamadori
Messages
94
Reaction score
72
Location
Hillsborough, NJ
USDA Zone
6b
Normally wouldn't bother giving my soil mix on here, but we're in close proximity and both 6b zones. I use orchiata pine chips and black lava. It's expensive but half the price of aka/lava/pumice mix. If you went that route, 40/60 pine to lava mix (or 2:3) would probably be perfect for larches in our area. at least based on my care/exposure/history. If you simply want to amend what you're already using then I'd say just add in the pine bark chips 1:1:1:1 to start. it will make the mix much more retentive. I specifically recommend orchiata blend because in my experience there's very little break down or problems. plus the 1/8th inch size they sell is sifted very nicely
This is very helpful thank you. Do you have any larches in this mix currently?
 

parvae_arbores

Yamadori
Messages
94
Reaction score
72
Location
Hillsborough, NJ
USDA Zone
6b
Got it!
Thank you for replying so quickly, in that case I would just rake them out leaving at least 1/3 of the original soil.

Base layer of volcanic rock soil, assemble them and put back the original soil you have raked out all around them.

If they were happy they still be happy, remember to keep them stress free (out of direct sunlight) for a couple of weeks (it’s like when the wife turns on the lights on Sunday morning when you’ve worked all week, you don’t want that 😂)

Think about developing later, repotting is stressful enough.

Ciao,

P.

PS: No tree species likes wet feet
I like this idea because it allows me to keep the soil flora similar. I might try a hybrid between this and the suggestion above.
 

Paradox

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
9,339
Reaction score
11,414
Location
Long Island, NY
USDA Zone
7a
I have a couple of collected American larch that are currently in container potting compost that I plan to transfer into a large training pot as a forest. I have been using equal parts akadama, pumice, and lava recently on all my trees but in zone 6B I do not want to be watering 3 times a day when the heat of the summer hits. I have thought about adding shredded spaghnum or leaf mold to the mix in a 50/50 ratio but I was curious if anyone has any recommendations.

I am also in a similar environment to you. I have one larch that I have in a mix of lava. akadama and pumice. I dont water 3x a day in the hot summer. My trees get watered once a day in the morning during the summer. Once in a while I need to give them water when I get home from work. My tree sits on a bench where it gets morning to noonish sun then shade the rest of the day. If you feel your larch is/are drying out too much you might try adding a greater percentage of akadama which holds more moisture than lava and pumice. You can also put moss on top of the soil to retain moisture. My larch seems to do fine in my yard in the summer with equal parts akadama, lava and pumice with some moss on the top of the soil.
 

parvae_arbores

Yamadori
Messages
94
Reaction score
72
Location
Hillsborough, NJ
USDA Zone
6b
I am also in a similar environment to you. I have one larch that I have in a mix of lava. akadama and pumice. I dont water 3x a day in the hot summer. My trees get watered once a day in the morning during the summer. Once in a while I need to give them water when I get home from work. My tree sits on a bench where it gets morning to noonish sun then shade the rest of the day. If you feel your larch is/are drying out too much you might try adding a greater percentage of akadama which holds more moisture than lava and pumice. You can also put moss on top of the soil to retain moisture. My larch seems to do fine in my yard in the summer with equal parts akadama, lava and pumice with some moss on the top of the soil.
Do you know what type of Larch they are?
 

Paradox

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
9,339
Reaction score
11,414
Location
Long Island, NY
USDA Zone
7a
Do you know what type of Larch they are?

No, I am not exactly sure what kind of larch I have.

A friend of mine about 20 miles west (generally warmer than where I am) of me has had trouble with American Larch and one of the things that seemed to help was to put them in afternoon shade so they were there during the hottest part of the day. He doesnt water 3x a day either because he is at work during the day.
 

PA_Penjing

Chumono
Messages
762
Reaction score
1,208
Location
Bethlehem, Pennsylvania
USDA Zone
6b
I am also in a similar environment to you. I have one larch that I have in a mix of lava. akadama and pumice. I dont water 3x a day in the hot summer. My trees get watered once a day in the morning during the summer. Once in a while I need to give them water when I get home from work. My tree sits on a bench where it gets morning to noonish sun then shade the rest of the day. If you feel your larch is/are drying out too much you might try adding a greater percentage of akadama which holds more moisture than lava and pumice. You can also put moss on top of the soil to retain moisture. My larch seems to do fine in my yard in the summer with equal parts akadama, lava and pumice with some moss on the top of the soil.
haha Oh man! that totally didn't even occur to me, just double up on the akadama. I have a one track mind when it comes to my soil mix i guess
 

PA_Penjing

Chumono
Messages
762
Reaction score
1,208
Location
Bethlehem, Pennsylvania
USDA Zone
6b
This is very helpful thank you. Do you have any larches in this mix currently?
No, but I will in 3 weeks, that's my standard deciduous ratio though. And I know exactly what to expect. In the past I did a 50/50 akadama and granite mix for my larches. That soil was too heavy, physically because granite is heavy and in terms of water logging because the akadama broke down instantly. I didnt know at the time it's important to buy real hard hard akadama. I was told by a collector from Massachusetts that larch collected from arid rocky places need to be treated more like typical conifers or the other species of larch, but american larch that are collected from swamps and bogs can be waterlogged with no problems. I have no idea if this is true so I just try to keep mine comfortably moist and open. My summers are pretty hot for the species and my yard is 100% full intense sun
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,908
Reaction score
45,579
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
Anything is better than sphagnum moss, and I don't know what leaf mold is but it sounds worse than something better!

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce
 

Leo in N E Illinois

The Professor
Messages
11,337
Reaction score
23,254
Location
on the IL-WI border, a mile from ''da Lake''
USDA Zone
5b
European larches, and western larches, and alpine larches all come from mountainous habitats. They like moisture levels similar to what keeps a spruce happy.

Larix laricina, the eastern NA larch, aka tamarack, is a bog creature in the southern half of its range, spreading into more general habitats in the northern reaches of Canada east of the Rocky Mountains. Eastern larch prefer moisture.

In the hottest couple weeks of summer, one could always set the pot in a tray of water, where the water level comes part way up the depth of the pot. Then as weather cools, you can remove the tray and treat the larch more like a normal spruce, meaning moist, not allowing to totally dry out.

I currently do not have any larches. @crust is our BNut larch expert, though sometimes he is busy and does not check in often. Perhaps he will comment on potting media he uses and how wet or dry he allows his larches to get.

In the absence of a comment from Crust, I'd go with the 1:2 Akadama & pumice blend. Skip the lava, it holds less water than pumice. Or I would go 1:2 Orchiata bark & pumice.

If you really want to keep the soil wet, sift Canadian peat, only keep particles larger than 1/8 th inch, and blend some of that into your mix. But I would not go much over 20% peat, because peat causes problems when it gets too dry, it compacts, then does no re-expand after being wet. And peat breaks down, often in less than 2 years. Using peat requires more frequent repotting. Generally I quit using peat years ago, but I did use a 1:2:2 peat, bark, pumice blend for azalea. It would also work for blueberry.

But if I were you, use search engine to read everything Crust posted on BNut about larches, and do what he does.
 
Top Bottom