Soil mix and drainage

Kahless

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I have a crab apple tree that I have potted up to the next size. The original mix I made had potting mix, orchid mix, lava rock, perlite, and also a fair amount of diatomaceous earth but that mix didn't seem to drain well so I up-potted it again just now with a new soil mix. I used is about 25% lava rock 25% perlite and 50% orchid mix with some pine bark fines also. I watered it and it doesn't seem to be draining through. What is wrong with my mix?20200315_121317.jpg20200315_121353.jpg
 

AaronThomas

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I agree with Mike... Looks like you were on track until the orchid mix.
Probably could have just stuck to the lava rock, perlite and pine bark.
My mix is 50%fine orchid bark (pine bark) 25%lava and 25%pumice..... Some say too much bark but its so hot here I use for extra water retention.
 

Kahless

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I agree with Mike... Looks like you were on track until the orchid mix.
Probably could have just stuck to the lava rock, perlite and pine bark.
My mix is 50%fine orchid bark (pine bark) 25%lava and 25%pumice..... Some say too much bark but its so hot here I use for extra water retention.
So, use pine bark, but not orchid mix pine bark? I figured it would be the same. Maybe I should have sifted it?
 

AaronThomas

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I figured it would be the same
Fine orchid bark is just small chips of pine (around 1/4"). The mix has soil and what not.
I sift my orchid bark... tends to have lots of fines.

fir-2.jpg
 

Kahless

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Fine orchid bark is just small chips of pine (around 1/4"). The mix has soil and what not.
I sift my orchid bark... tends to have lots of fines.

View attachment 289090
Thanks. Should I change the soil again or just leave it be? I don't want to disturb it too much but I also don't want root rot. I haven't touched the root ball or messed with the original mix it came in (from evergreen gardenworks)
 

AaronThomas

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Should I change the soil again or just leave it be
If you just did it... and your careful... I think it would be safe to swap out.
Thats my opinion... maybe someone else could weigh in?
 

Eckhoffw

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-Just wanted to chime in since I use a similar mix often- Lava-pearlite-Napa-bark. About equal parts. Have not used orchid mix but..

I agree with all the above comments. Perhaps there is a component in orchid mix mucking things up.

Generally, I’ve noticed slower drainage and longer Dry out periods when using this mix. *compared to other common bonsai mixes. Of course particle size is always a factor.

In regards to this mix, you aren’t going to see the water instantly pour out the bottom of the container.
Due to properties of the components, and their promotion of aeration and water retention.
-Dry particles are going to absorb a lot.

Serious dry to wet weight differential.

I do find this mix nice for cuttings and plants that like a long consistent moist situation.
At first, I over watered this mix. Now I’m loving it.
 

Kahless

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-Just wanted to chime in since I use a similar mix often- Lava-pearlite-Napa-bark. About equal parts. Have not used orchid mix but..

I agree with all the above comments. Perhaps there is a component in orchid mix mucking things up.

Generally, I’ve noticed slower drainage and longer Dry out periods when using this mix. *compared to other common bonsai mixes. Of course particle size is always a factor.

In regards to this mix, you aren’t going to see the water instantly pour out the bottom of the container.
Due to properties of the components, and their promotion of aeration and water retention.
-Dry particles are going to absorb a lot.

Serious dry to wet weight differential.

I do find this mix nice for cuttings and plants that like a long consistent moist situation.
At first, I over watered this mix. Now I’m loving it.
I checked it again and it did eventually drain. Just not minutes later like I was expecting.
 

Kahless

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-Just wanted to chime in since I use a similar mix often- Lava-pearlite-Napa-bark. About equal parts. Have not used orchid mix but..

I agree with all the above comments. Perhaps there is a component in orchid mix mucking things up.

Generally, I’ve noticed slower drainage and longer Dry out periods when using this mix. *compared to other common bonsai mixes. Of course particle size is always a factor.

In regards to this mix, you aren’t going to see the water instantly pour out the bottom of the container.
Due to properties of the components, and their promotion of aeration and water retention.
-Dry particles are going to absorb a lot.

Serious dry to wet weight differential.

I do find this mix nice for cuttings and plants that like a long consistent moist situation.
At first, I over watered this mix. Now I’m loving it.
Also, the DE I used was floor-dry. Are all diatomaceous earth products the same? I see people use Napa a lot but this was cheaper.1584301058611551001632338528107.jpg
 

Stan Kengai

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Something in the organic part of your mix looks to have a very small particle size. Can't tell what it is from the picture, but I suspect that's the culprit.

If you are looking for growth, large particle size is what you need. I mean like 1/4" and larger. However, crabapples are very thirsty plants and some varieties grow perfectly fine in boggy conditions. The roots produced by wet conditions are not ideal for bonsai, but the plant will live just fine.
 

M. Frary

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Hey rid of everything but the D E. and the lava.
It will drain faster than you can pour it in.
Organics mixed in with inorganic substrates plug up the works faster than a block of cheese does to you.
 

BuckeyeOne

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So, use pine bark, but not orchid mix pine bark? I figured it would be the same. Maybe I should have sifted it?
I find that all mixes that are designated as "potting" take a pre-watering. A screening beforehand also helps. If blended into your mix without wetting before, the water tends to puddle on top of the soil. If you lay the potting mix out in a large shallow tray and water, fluff the mix with chopsticks as you go, it will eventually absorb the water. It will be easier to water from there on unless you let it dry out.
I try to stay away from anything that says "Potting" on the bag. Usually too fine.
 

rockm

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Hope it doesn't get very windy, or that tree could blow right out of that pot ;) Perlite and pine bark are physical pretty lightweight...You got that tree anchored in that pot with wire?
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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The problem with both of your mixes is not the components. The problem is you did not sift the mix to remove dusty, air void clogging fines. An ideal bonsai mix all the particles are roughly the same size. No fines, no coarse chunks. The exact opposite of the way concrete is made.

All mixes are dramatically improved by removing the fine particles. If you don't have a set of bonsai sieves, get a set.

Until your new set of sieves shows up, use a piece of window screen. Sift the dry mix components before mixing. Anything that goes through the window screen is too fine to be in a bonsai pot. Mix your dry components together and then sift again. You really need to get rid of the fines.

I'm pretty sure there is nothing "wrong" with the Schultz Orchid mix, it just has too much in the way of fines. Sift it, and what stays on top of a piece of window screen will be fine as a bonsai mix component.

Potting soil. This is a big mistake as nearly 100% of potting soil is fines. This all goes to plugging up the pores in your potting mix. This is the one component to leave out of your mix.

Hope this helps.
 

Kahless

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The problem with both of your mixes is not the components. The problem is you did not sift the mix to remove dusty, air void clogging fines. An ideal bonsai mix all the particles are roughly the same size. No fines, no coarse chunks. The exact opposite of the way concrete is made.

All mixes are dramatically improved by removing the fine particles. If you don't have a set of bonsai sieves, get a set.

Until your new set of sieves shows up, use a piece of window screen. Sift the dry mix components before mixing. Anything that goes through the window screen is too fine to be in a bonsai pot. Mix your dry components together and then sift again. You really need to get rid of the fines.

I'm pretty sure there is nothing "wrong" with the Schultz Orchid mix, it just has too much in the way of fines. Sift it, and what stays on top of a piece of window screen will be fine as a bonsai mix component.

Potting soil. This is a big mistake as nearly 100% of potting soil is fines. This all goes to plugging up the pores in your potting mix. This is the one component to leave out of your mix.

Hope this helps.
Thank you! I ordered sieves a couple days ago so they should be here soon. This simplifies everything and I feel like I could make use of what I have which is very helpful. Had trouble finding just the right pine fines for a reasonable price that could be delivered.
 
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