Some help designing my maples

[giventofly]

I'm in need of some guiding tips for 2 of my maples.

I got this one that I wanted to do a twin trunk style similar to this image



My idea was to cut the red branches (letting them grow to create a bit more tapper in the bottom), keep the green one and now I don't know if I should cut the blue branches and keep the yellow (smaller and with new branches in the future) or keep the blue one. Maybe keep both? Suggestions?



For this one, I'm trying to do something similar to the last image


So my idea would be to cut the red lines and keep the green one, good idea? bad? Going to leave the lower branches for some time as sacrificial branches

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Something I’ve been learning about building trees, it’s not about what I want, it’s about what the tree will be able to do. A model is a fine start, until one looks really hard at what they have to work with. Then it’s up to using what the tree can actually provide.

Back to your question.

It seems everything past the first bend on both your green and blue lines are thick and pretty darn straight, no ramification
Likely these sections are not that useful In a design.

You might want to look towards chopping back these sections to the innermost foliage on each and use these smaller branches or foliage that back buds below these to help develop the next section… and foliage off of these branches to develop the next…etc. This will give you taper and more ramification.

Same advise on the second tree. I’d chop to the innermost branches and work from there.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Shibui]

One of the tricks to long term bonsai design is don't just look at what is there. Look also at what could be there.
@Deep Sea Diver has already pointed out long, straight sections with no taper is not a good start so cutting the blue section is necessary but that does not mean you are stuck with the horizontal yellow branch. There are more small buds at that junction That will grow vertical when the blue branches are cut. Your second trunk can be developed from those.
The green section is made up of some very long internodes, especially higher. It may seem counterproductive to chop back when you want the trunk to extend but using long internodes for basic structure is a ling term mistake that many of have come to regret. Better to go backwards for a year than live with problems for the next 40 or more.

The plan for the second tree looks valid but also bear in mind longer internodes so where there's a choice remove longer sections and substitute branches with shorter internodes.
Not sure why you've elected to keep a branch on the left that curves up and grows vertical alongside the main trunk. The inspiration tree has horizontal branches so I'd be removing vertical and retaining more horizontal shoots or wiring the best shoots out flatter to start branches.

I also note your trees are in tall, skinny pots. Maybe that's just what they came in and you have not yet had opportunity to repot? Nebari is important in maple bonsai. I'd rather check the roots before planning any long term development as sometimes the roots don't support your plans. For instance if the roots are deep in the pot on the first tree the trunk fork will be way too high for a pleasing twin trunk. I know we can always change roots but why go to all that effort if you can design a much better tree that makes use of the roots as they are?
Wider pots will allow lateral surface roots to develop better and will also allow branches room to grow. Pots do not necessarily need to be shallow as the current trend because vertical roots can always be trimmed but wider is important to allow lateral roots to develop.

 

[sorce]

If I can add as good a banger as the first sentence or 2 of each of those posts, which would be hard cuz those are excellent advices...

I'd say, use what you can identify as possible.

If a tree has 1/4in. internodes anywhere, know it's possible and accept nothing less. If it has one 1/2in. leaf, know it's possible and design as compact as that leaf convincingly allows.

Truth.....

Those "goal" trees are kinda whack, like THEY looked at a picture and accepted all the shortcuts it would take to get there, as these mimicks tend to make a human do.

Don't get me wrong, they look good at first glance, but there no longevity there, contrary, they will look poor very soon, either because the thick overgrown top and high branches will need to be severely cut back to remain in proportion (thickness), or they will not be severely cut back and will just be out of proportion.

The longer you take to build a tree, the longer it's longevity.

We (west) tend to call a tree "finished" as soon as it "almost" looks good. A point where it instantly begins to become poor if left to its own devices.

I really well built tree can be left for years and not become poor.

You have to build that longevity in.

Sorce

 

[giventofly]

Thanks for the advice, let me try to answer everything and put a new image of things to cut if I understood correctly.

It seems everything past the first bend on both your green and blue lines are thick and pretty darn straight, no ramification
Likely these sections are not that useful In a design.

Yeah, I had that feeling but wanted some kind of confirmation to know I was not doing any big mistake.

It may seem counterproductive to chop back when you want the trunk to extend but using long internodes for basic structure is a ling term mistake that many of have come to regret.

Agree

The plan for the second tree looks valid but also bear in mind longer internodes so where there's a choice remove longer sections and substitute branches with shorter internodes.
Not sure why you've elected to keep a branch on the left that curves up and grows vertical alongside the main trunk. The inspiration tree has horizontal branches so I'd be removing vertical and retaining more horizontal shoots or wiring the best shoots out flatter to start branches.

Makes totally sense, thank you.

I also note your trees are in tall, skinny pots.

They arrived in smaller pots, I repotted them with a plastic base "attached" to the roots to make the roots grow horizontally and have enough space for the tree to grow "wild"

If a tree has 1/4in. internodes anywhere, know it's possible and accept nothing less. If it has one 1/2in. leaf, know it's possible and design as compact as that leaf convincingly allows.

Could you clarify this? I didn't understand what you meant, sorry

 

[giventofly]

Okay, did some cuts and removed the long internodes, tell me I didn't exaggerate. I left some margin for the branch to die a bit and have some margin.

First one:


The yellow lines are my expected grow branches that, but don't know probably other will come.

The second one:

Removed all the long internodes and now waiting for them to grow

 

[Shibui]

That pruning is probably what I'd have done so probably not overdone.

Plans can change drastically depending on which parts grow well and which don't. A plan is good to work toward but always feel free to see something new appearing in the possibilities.
Here's what I see in the first tree based on the existing branches, visible buds and possible shoots from nodes.

Slightly different from your plan but more like the original twin trunk inspiration.
I am just a little concerned about the height of trunk to first fork for a good twin though. Still can't see any surface roots but assume they are just below the surface after the repot so twin could just be OK, especially if it is a medium sized bonsai rather than very small.
I also note that it appears to be grafted which may or may not cause visual problems as it grows. Fortunately the graft is very close to the fork so most graft problems will be hidden by the transition to the 2 trunks. There's always the option to layer closer to the fork if either height or graft becomes a problem in future.

After pruning JM often respond with lush new growth with long internodes. You may need to prune a second time. Sometimes even third regrowth has long internodes but eventually you'll get shoots that are suitable to build structure. Some Jm are more vigorous and harder to manage than others so you'll just have to see how this one responds.
Note of caution after that. The soil in that pot appears to be new. If the tree was repotted this year you should be less aggressive this season to allow the roots to regrow. In that case I would accept some long shoots this season and leave more aggressive pruning until it has settled in better. A year is not long to wait in the scheme of bonsai and far better than a dead tree.

IMHO the second tree appears to have far better shape, structure and potential but good luck with both.

 

[giventofly]

I also note that it appears to be grafted which may or may not cause visual problems as it grows. Fortunately the graft is very close to the fork so most graft problems will be hidden by the transition to the 2 trunks. There's always the option to layer closer to the fork if either height or graft becomes a problem in future.

I was thinking of doing it sometime along the line.

IMHO the second tree appears to have far better shape, structure and potential but good luck with both.

Thank you, will try to not forget to put updates

 

[dbonsaiw]

I got this one that I wanted to do a twin trunk style similar to this image

That's Peter Chan's famous split trunk - gorgeous tree. I recently cut a small JM down really low in the hopes of making one of these myself.