Some things to think about for newbie collectors

rockm

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I ran across this article on collecting a while back. it's from 2016 or so, but mostly timeless--overwrought and pretentious as the article is-it has an extremely valid point. It struck a nerve, so up on my soapbox...

It shows how inexperience and disregard for others impacts collecting and collectible trees. The mindless inept and selfish BS exhibited with this attempt is not as uncommon as it should be. There are many instance of similar things happening all over the planet with asshole/greedy bonsai collectors overestimating their abilities, taking advantage of situations, and generally not giving a shit or any thought about what they're doing. Similar thing have happened in the U.S. from Fla. to the Rockies over the years. Some areas of the Philippines outlawed collection of certain species on their coastlines because of overcollection and destruction.

The age and qualities of this tree here aren't really germane. Inept, destructive and selfish collection not only kills spectacular trees, but also mediocre trees. It can destroy habitat and most of all, reflects on ALL OF US--like it or not.

Yamadori isn't "free" material laying around for you to take. It's a resource for all of us. Get permission (yeah--it's hard) Think before you dig
(how is this going to impact the site? Leave no trace of your activity--fill in your holes for God's sake). Know what you're doing (including WHAT you're digging up for crying out loud before you take it), know how to care for it (do your homework). Don't take more than you need (no, it's not 'free' and all of it doesn't belong to you).
 

Tieball

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Clearly expressed and very correct. I like a good venting….especially on this subject. And fully agree…and also fully agree with filling your holes after digging….anywhere you dig.

I shake my head a lot when I read: I just dug this up…it was free….now what do I do….help me style this tree….I cut the roots off so will it grow? How to….what to….when to….but it was free so I couldn’t pass it up. Kill it yes, but couldn’t pass it up. Think before digging.
 
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rockm

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dbonsaiw

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Well said, but context is important. I have the good fortune of living right near acres of land that are in litigation on how exactly to bulldoze the place and replace it with concrete. Before we know it, there will be no trees there at all. I will yamadori there with complete abandon and learn all about the trees after they are in my yard if need be. The massive holes caused by 60 foot trees falling don’t seem to bother anyone.
I’m curious to understand how much of an impact the inexperienced are actually making In their yamadori adventures. I would imagine that those who sell yamadori and/or the ones that literally have 1,000 in their collection need a talking to. Also, the newbie yardadori isn’t the issue being addressed.
 

ShadyStump

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This doesn't directly relate, but it does illustrate a related point.

I've read of a handful of different people here over the past year or so who have ordered a common sage brush - artamisia - from a seller on ebay, and all received a poorly collected dead plant in the mail. I suspect it's the same seller, possibly under different names.
There's likely someone who has no interest in bonsai but knows some people will pay good money for something they themselves consider a weed who is running out into sticks and grabbing trees and bushes to put online.

This is the source of the issues being described often times.
Anyone who does bonsai cares about the trees, and the environment they come from because they understand how much time and how difficult it is to make a tree like that.
But there are people who know only enough to think they can make a quick buck, and they engage collecting recklessly and often illegally to do just that.

These are the people who shut the rest of us down.
The best way to handle that is to only engage with people you know will do it right. BNut has good people from all over the world, including many professionals, who are very willing to help out. Just post in the Looking To Buy forum, and screw eBay.
 

rockm

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Well said, but context is important. I have the good fortune of living right near acres of land that are in litigation on how exactly to bulldoze the place and replace it with concrete. Before we know it, there will be no trees there at all. I will yamadori there with complete abandon and learn all about the trees after they are in my yard if need be. The massive holes caused by 60 foot trees falling don’t seem to bother anyone.
I’m curious to understand how much of an impact the inexperienced are actually making In their yamadori adventures. I would imagine that those who sell yamadori and/or the ones that literally have 1,000 in their collection need a talking to. Also, the newbie yardadori isn’t the issue being addressed.
I can be a zealot when it comes to this having dealt with folks coming on land I used to own. They illegally took stuff (lumber for the most part)...Doesn't make any difference if you're illegally digging on land that is about to be developed, or without a permit on land that isn't. Permission is required in both instances. Ethics are ethics. Rationalization isn't a good thing--"no one's going to miss THIS tree" --well, yeah, maybe..."It was going to be bulldozed" can be a manufactured danger. Yeah, it may indeed be bulldozed, but that really doesn't give you automatic unspoken permission to take what you want without asking. It's not your property and the trees on it don't belong to you...The landowner is liable for injuries you get on their property, or may have plans that you are unaware of that may include the trees you're taking. You won't know unless you ask the owner of the land about whether they want you on their land, taking their trees---But, ultimately, and unfortunately, I've seen over the years that mostly the bottom line for not asking permission is really about the answer being "no" -not so much fear for the trees' lives.

And FWIW, the folks selling yamadori and collecting many trees typically have permits and ethics to go with them as well as the judgement and skills to get them out alive. Yes, there are some who go up the line of what's acceptable (and they should be called on it and some have been). For the most part, however, wanton bullshit like that in the article-- old trees carved up and left on the mountain/woods/etc.--are the work of overconfident, inexperienced, and selfish beginners.

And I know of no one with 1,000 trees in their collection...
 
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dbonsaiw

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I can be a zealot when it comes to this having dealt with folks coming on land I used to own. They illegally took stuff (lumber for the most part)...Doesn't make any difference if you're illegally digging on land that is about to be developed, or without a permit on land that isn't. Permission is required in both instances. Ethics are ethics. Rationalization isn't a good thing--"no one's going to miss THIS tree" --well, yeah, maybe..
I don't disagree. Wrong is wrong and one need not be a zealot to recognize this. I am "rationalizing" my approach, but like all things bonsai it truly depends. This property has been used by the public as a pass through since fighting began. If liability was a concern, they should address that regardless of yamadori. Maybe fix the fence or keep folks away from the overflowing man-made lake. And there truly is no harm being done here. The place is filled with giant old trees that have no bonsai purpose. We have scoured the area and found not a single seedling from these trees - maybe it's still too early. The areas that were historically kempt have nothing to take unless you're into datura stramonium or black locust . The rest has been allowed to grow wild for years as they fight it out- this is open game as far as I'm concerned. The developers may leave some of the older trees, but if you think they spent 8 figures to leave vast areas around the property with overgrown crap, well that's just wrong.
And I know of no one with 1,000 trees in their collection...
If I don't slow down I may there in a decade or so
 

Asymetrix

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I mean I agree with your sentiment but its literally infinitesimal, especially in the states. Drop in the bucket.

Not to mention the thousands of acres of land that is intentionally burned, as well as wild fires.

At the moment with the way the earth is changing collecting may be more akin to conservation.
 

rockm

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I mean I agree with your sentiment but its literally infinitesimal, especially in the states. Drop in the bucket.

Not to mention the thousands of acres of land that is intentionally burned, as well as wild fires.

At the moment with the way the earth is changing collecting may be more akin to conservation.
this has NOTHING to do with quantity of trees collected or square miles of land. It has nothing to do with fires.

It has to do with behavior of people doing the collecting.

And The "We must destroy the village to save it" argument is self-involved. No, in digging a tree up, we're not conserving it. We're taking ownership. You are taking something out of the public domain where it can be seen by others and where it contributes to the wider ecosystem and placing it in an artificial environment under private ownership, accessible to only a handful of people...
 

ShadyStump

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I feel like some people are arguing with @rockm from the perspective that they feel he's against collecting trees from the ground.
He's very clearly not, and has some collected/yamadori trees himself.

He's simply stating that it should be done responsibly and legally, and there is frankly no argument against that.
How you personally chose to define and treat the gray areas is up to you, and you can bare the consequences yourself, whatever they may be. If you disagree with his definitions and treatments, that doesn't mean his have no baring. It means you're willing to take different chances than he is.

I, for one, have cut back on my attempts at collecting, especially certain species, because I just haven't had much luck keeping them alive. Until I've learned do I'm not going to continue sacrificing good material to my ineptitude.
That doesn't mean I don't hunt yamadori in the hills, it means now I don't go after game I know I can't handle. Anyone would be wise to do the same.
No, I don't have a permit every time I go out in the woods. Yes, it is illegal.
I make no excuses, I make no justifications to anyone, and I will pay the price if that goes bad for me, and it will be my own damned fault.

Between the legalities and the potential for failure, one should ALWAYS be judicious in their collecting processes.
 

ShadyStump

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So in other words, you're saying bonsai are like pets? You shouldn't get one until you know how to care for it?
I agree with the sentiment, but the practicality is a little different.
I mean, how do you learn how to care for one if you don't have one?
So you start with a goldfish or something, and work your way up.

I did the opposite, jumping right in trying to collect pinion pines with no clue what I was doing, and now I caution others against doing the same. I killed some really nice trees doing that, and they are never going to come back, and I will never have those same opportunities again.
I really should've just tried a goldfish before jumping in on a rare saltwater species.
 

rockm

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I agree with the sentiment, but the practicality is a little different.
I mean, how do you learn how to care for one if you don't have one?
So you start with a goldfish or something, and work your way up.

I did the opposite, jumping right in trying to collect pinion pines with no clue what I was doing, and now I caution others against doing the same. I killed some really nice trees doing that, and they are never going to come back, and I will never have those same opportunities again.
I really should've just tried a goldfish before jumping in on a rare saltwater species.
I think this is pretty solid experience-based advice. People who jump into collecting without much bonsai experience are not only greatly complicating their success with bonsai in general, but also the lives of things they're working on/destroying. Someone without any experience in bonsai in general is at a huge disadvantage with collecting raw material, since they will make beginner mistakes (overwatering, overpruning, overpotting, etc.) with trees that may have been pretty promising...

I didn't begin collecting stock until I'd been doing bonsai for five years or so. That period gave me a hard won understanding of how trees in containers work. Even with the know-how, I killed a lot of collected trees in the first few years. I know it would have been more if I just started digging up everything I saw.
 
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I would have to say people should temper their ambitions and build their skill set. While it is true that starting with epic material is a huge jumpstart, especially early on has obvious advantages. This is where folks have to hold back.
For example I was in bonsai for over ten years before I collected a yamadori. This was after years of urban collection via craigslist inquiries & contacting construction sites.
Going for yamadori, l only did when l was able to get under the wing of an experienced collector, who do to their ethics, was very tight lipped about it…it took me over a year to gain that trust, and for them to see my work and understand my wilderness ethics.
I love being able to collect, but just being in remote locations and seeing the most crazy crack-bound trees (that are completely uncollectible) is what bonsai is all about for me.
 

rockm

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Almost every Itoigawa juniper has been collected from the wild. Oops!

Brian Van Fleet helped resurrect an important Kindai article on shimpaku and its history including its vanishing from the wild from overcollection. Worth reading.

 
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