Species snobbery

rockm

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I was once told that a tree can be defined as any woody plant which, all things being well, will grow to in excess of 4 metres or 13 feet. I Don’t know how true that is, but to that end, I find myself only really getting excited by the prospect of bonsaiing plants in this category. There are plenty of privet, dogwood, spindle etc growing wild around here, as well as all the garden centre shrubs, and they are often easier to visualise in terms of turning them into a bonsai quicker, but at the end of the day they would just be small shrubs in pots made to look like trees as opposed to actual trees in miniature. Also, to my mind it seems like a more fruitful way to learn quicker by just concentrating on 5 or 6 species or genus. In my case that would be Oaks, Elms, Maples, Hawthorn, Yew and Hornbeam.

I just wondered if anybody else has a similar outlook and why, or alternatively, am I being too narrow minded in my planning / education?
As pointed out, bonsai is NOT simply making an exact replica of a tree, only tinier...That approach produces bad, mostly unsatisfying bonsai. Bonsai is, and always has been, about humans, NOT trees, just like stone carving isn't about stone (is Michelangelo's "David" all about the stone used to make him, or is it how the carver used the stone to interpret human emotion?).

the thought that "small shrubs" don't make good bonsai material vs "big" tree is exactly wrong. The OPPOSITE is true, small shrubs are far better able to become good bonsai than 'big' tree species simply because small shrubs are already smaller in growth patterns. I have both "big" native species and "small shrub" bonsai...

Big trees have to be "tamed" in containers. There growth habits are extremely long and lanky when scaled down. That is they tend to push very very strong growth of big, bare limbs with lots of space between leaves--not what you want.

Smaller shrubs, boxwood, azalea and others can be trained to look EXACTLY like big trees. The photo below is of a Kingsville boxwood less that eight inches tall that is trained as a "Southern live oak" common across the American south. And if you think azalea don't look like "real" trees, take a look through here...Look at the bases of the trunk (nebari) and try to mentally edit the flowers out if you want (they're only around for a couple of week in June anyway-so satsuki azalea spend most of their time mimicking "big" trees.kingsville2.jpg
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Adair's response caught the bulk of what I think needed to be said about snobbery.

Grow what you like.

Tastes change, evolve, both individually and in the community zeitgeist. For a while, Chaenomeles, Japanese flowering quince, was a largely underappreciated group in North America. Then suddenly, especially the cultivar 'Chojubai' was all the rage. Cuttings and young plants of 'Chojubai' used to sell for $15 usd, then plants with only a couple years of growth became the ''rage'', and prices soared such that young plants were fetching $200 prices on auction. Now the fervor seems to have simmered down some. I bought a nice "Chojubai" probably 3 to 5 years from a cutting, for only $35. Poor 'Chojubai' in fashion one year and out of style the next.

Right now I see a lot of people diving into Quercus, the more seasoned veterans getting in on old collected material, and the newbies following the trend with seedlings and younger material. This year "oaks are hot". When the less dedicated realize just how difficult and slow they are to develop, you will see oaks drop off the radar.

I used to dislike junipers, for no reason other than I was bored with seeing one bad juniper after another poorly done juniper. I have a couple I mostly ignore. One of my juniper cuttings turned 9 years old, and suddenly it isn't so boring. Damn it, now I have to learn how to handle junipers.

Some trees definitely are easier to turn into believable bonsai than others. When one gets competent enough at the horticulture techniques, that they have the freedom to be more artistic, you will find yourself returning to some of the "boring old standards" because they are the "horticultural silly putty" and will allow you to create new images.

Some trees have horticultural limits that are not obvious, for example, Diospyros, there is a fairly high attrition rate after repotting. Persimmon have yet to become a dime a dozen. I'd like to see that change, I'm working on it, but each year, after repotting, I loose a number of them and can't put an assignable cause to it. Reports from others suggest this is the norm, not the exception.

JWP is another tree that is notorious for being more difficult to do well.

At any rate. My collection today is very different than it was 40 years ago, and 25 years ago. My entire collection has been replaced several times over the years. Each time my focus is different. I think this is normal, and healthy. My interests change, my skills change, and the time I have for the hobby changes.

Grow what you like, most of bonsai is a solitary activity, enjoy it as such, and don't worry about what others think.
 

Adair M

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@Woocash
Adair's response caught the bulk of what I think needed to be said about snobbery.

Grow what you like.

Tastes change, evolve, both individually and in the community zeitgeist. For a while, Chaenomeles, Japanese flowering quince, was a largely underappreciated group in North America. Then suddenly, especially the cultivar 'Chojubai' was all the rage. Cuttings and young plants of 'Chojubai' used to sell for $15 usd, then plants with only a couple years of growth became the ''rage'', and prices soared such that young plants were fetching $200 prices on auction. Now the fervor seems to have simmered down some. I bought a nice "Chojubai" probably 3 to 5 years from a cutting, for only $35. Poor 'Chojubai' in fashion one year and out of style the next.

Right now I see a lot of people diving into Quercus, the more seasoned veterans getting in on old collected material, and the newbies following the trend with seedlings and younger material. This year "oaks are hot". When the less dedicated realize just how difficult and slow they are to develop, you will see oaks drop off the radar.

I used to dislike junipers, for no reason other than I was bored with seeing one bad juniper after another poorly done juniper. I have a couple I mostly ignore. One of my juniper cuttings turned 9 years old, and suddenly it isn't so boring. Damn it, now I have to learn how to handle junipers.

Some trees definitely are easier to turn into believable bonsai than others. When one gets competent enough at the horticulture techniques, that they have the freedom to be more artistic, you will find yourself returning to some of the "boring old standards" because they are the "horticultural silly putty" and will allow you to create new images.

Some trees have horticultural limits that are not obvious, for example, Diospyros, there is a fairly high attrition rate after repotting. Persimmon have yet to become a dime a dozen. I'd like to see that change, I'm working on it, but each year, after repotting, I loose a number of them and can't put an assignable cause to it. Reports from others suggest this is the norm, not the exception.

JWP is another tree that is notorious for being more difficult to do well.

At any rate. My collection today is very different than it was 40 years ago, and 25 years ago. My entire collection has been replaced several times over the years. Each time my focus is different. I think this is normal, and healthy. My interests change, my skills change, and the time I have for the hobby changes.

Grow what you like, most of bonsai is a solitary activity, enjoy it as such, and don't worry about what others think.
I used to not be a fan of junipers because pretty much all I ever saw were Procumbens. I did see the occasional shimpaku, but then again they weren’t impressive. Then, I started studying bonsai in California with Boon. Those junipers were different!

And later, when he took me up into the mountains to see where they grow naturally, well, that changed my whole perspective!

One thing... some junipers have very coarse foliage, others have tighter, more refinable foliage. The challenge is that those junipers with the coarse foliage can create some beautiful trunks! But trying to make a nice canopy of foliage is next to impossible. The solution is to graft on better foliage. The Japanese have been doing this for a long time, we just never knew.

I used to think JWP were fussy, too, but once I changed to using Boon Mix, I haven’t had any problems. In fact, they thrive!

The point of any hobby is to enjoy the time you spend doing it. There’s all kinds of ways to participate in bonsai.
 

Lazylightningny

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I kinda agree about the tree/shrub thing although I have some azaleas, juniper and dwarf crapes that are shrubs. The actual trees just float my boat a little more. But I don't limit myself to just a few species. That would be boring for me. There's Japanese maple, trident maple, amur maple, native red maple, dogwood (a tree in the eastern US), water oak, water elm, American elm, Cedar elm, winged elm, Chinese elm, Bald cypress, American hornbeam, crape myrtle, Virginia pine, mugo pine, ponderosa pine, Colorado spruce, black hills spruce, engelmann spruce and eastern hemlock. Oh yeah and a tulip poplar experiment. Phew.
How do the leaves on the tulip tree reduce? They have huge leaves.
 

VAFisher

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How do the leaves on the tulip tree reduce? They have huge leaves.

Don't know yet. I started with a seedling yanked from my flower bed last year. I grew it in a pond basket in 2018 and a big grow box in 2019. It's about 6' tall now with about a 1.5" trunk. I figure I need at least a 4 to 6" trunk before I can even think about the leaves. Based on the size of some of the leaves on mine, I think they will reduce. The long petioles might be a different story, but with a big tree it might look believable. I'm probably a decade away.
 

Woocash

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I am not sure I agree that bonsai is very subjective. Something can be a good tree based on a number of objective rules. Whether someone likes the species or the tree does not per se come into play there.
That is why it is so subjective, in my view. The objective rules are a framework to build around, not a set in stone mantra. Each tree is different and each artist is different. As an art form you cant expect everybody to conform to the rules or else we are just left with “bonsai by numbers”. There are copious amounts of trees that I have seen that, while technically brilliant, just don’t do it for me on an artistic level.
 

Woocash

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As pointed out, bonsai is NOT simply making an exact replica of a tree, only tinier...That approach produces bad, mostly unsatisfying bonsai. Bonsai is, and always has been, about humans, NOT trees, just like stone carving isn't about stone (is Michelangelo's "David" all about the stone used to make him, or is it how the carver used the stone to interpret human emotion?).

the thought that "small shrubs" don't make good bonsai material vs "big" tree is exactly wrong. The OPPOSITE is true, small shrubs are far better able to become good bonsai than 'big' tree species simply because small shrubs are already smaller in growth patterns. I have both "big" native species and "small shrub" bonsai...

Big trees have to be "tamed" in containers. There growth habits are extremely long and lanky when scaled down. That is they tend to push very very strong growth of big, bare limbs with lots of space between leaves--not what you want.

Smaller shrubs, boxwood, azalea and others can be trained to look EXACTLY like big trees. The photo below is of a Kingsville boxwood less that eight inches tall that is trained as a "Southern live oak" common across the American south. And if you think azalea don't look like "real" trees, take a look through here...Look at the bases of the trunk (nebari) and try to mentally edit the flowers out if you want (they're only around for a couple of week in June anyway-so satsuki azalea spend most of their time mimicking "big" trees.
The thing is, those azaleas just don’t look like any trees that I have seen. I am loathe to use the word but they remind me of a caricature of a tree, even without the flowers, because I could never go into the wild and find a tree like that anywhere, to my knowledge. (I am very willing to be proved wrong by the way) The buxus looks great. That really does look like a small tree, with all the familiarity of standing under a nice large old oak.

Everything you said about tree species being harder to tame in small scale makes perfect sense though. Maybe I just have my ideas of what a bonsai is actually supposed to be all backwards and the mimicking of trees as opposed to miniature versions of trees is the aim of the game?

To be fair, even if that is the case my aim will be to produce craggy old things that remind me of England rather than to create ‘true’ bonsai (here we go again). Perhaps a trip to Japan may change that...
 

Woocash

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@Woocash
Adair's response caught the bulk of what I think needed to be said about snobbery.

Grow what you like.

Tastes change, evolve, both individually and in the community zeitgeist. For a while, Chaenomeles, Japanese flowering quince, was a largely underappreciated group in North America. Then suddenly, especially the cultivar 'Chojubai' was all the rage. Cuttings and young plants of 'Chojubai' used to sell for $15 usd, then plants with only a couple years of growth became the ''rage'', and prices soared such that young plants were fetching $200 prices on auction. Now the fervor seems to have simmered down some. I bought a nice "Chojubai" probably 3 to 5 years from a cutting, for only $35. Poor 'Chojubai' in fashion one year and out of style the next.

Right now I see a lot of people diving into Quercus, the more seasoned veterans getting in on old collected material, and the newbies following the trend with seedlings and younger material. This year "oaks are hot". When the less dedicated realize just how difficult and slow they are to develop, you will see oaks drop off the radar.

I used to dislike junipers, for no reason other than I was bored with seeing one bad juniper after another poorly done juniper. I have a couple I mostly ignore. One of my juniper cuttings turned 9 years old, and suddenly it isn't so boring. Damn it, now I have to learn how to handle junipers.

Some trees definitely are easier to turn into believable bonsai than others. When one gets competent enough at the horticulture techniques, that they have the freedom to be more artistic, you will find yourself returning to some of the "boring old standards" because they are the "horticultural silly putty" and will allow you to create new images.

Some trees have horticultural limits that are not obvious, for example, Diospyros, there is a fairly high attrition rate after repotting. Persimmon have yet to become a dime a dozen. I'd like to see that change, I'm working on it, but each year, after repotting, I loose a number of them and can't put an assignable cause to it. Reports from others suggest this is the norm, not the exception.

JWP is another tree that is notorious for being more difficult to do well.

At any rate. My collection today is very different than it was 40 years ago, and 25 years ago. My entire collection has been replaced several times over the years. Each time my focus is different. I think this is normal, and healthy. My interests change, my skills change, and the time I have for the hobby changes.

Grow what you like, most of bonsai is a solitary activity, enjoy it as such, and don't worry about what others think.
Cheers Leo. One thing I pride myself on is not really conforming to the norms. I don’t like something just because someone else says I should and I don’t dislike something i’m told is wrong. Equally, I don’t strive to be different. You have to grow what you like or else you’ll get bored quickly so that isn’t really my issue. I am really just curious as to what I would be missing out on by only really dealing with British deciduous material.

It’s funny that you mention oaks being “hot” as it was the first species I thought of as wanting to turn into a bonsai. They stand out in the landscape and are head and shoulders above any of our other trees in terms of presence. Therefore, a miniature grand old oak has always appealed to me. Just a coincidence as I very much do not have my finger on the pulse. I have recently collected a small turkey oak to practice on as they are faster growing than an english oak. Regardless, I’m still young enough for patience to be a virtue :p

Assuming I stick around long enough, I have already accepted that there will be an ever rotating stock of trees and species, no doubt. It’s easy to plan for only a few of this or that, but then the bug will get stronger in spring and i’ll realise that a small handful of plants just wont be growing quick enough, so it follows that more will be added. I just hope that in 40 years time i’ll have a collection to be snobbish about. Just wait til I get on to conifers...
 

Adair M

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Cheers Leo. One thing I pride myself on is not really conforming to the norms. I don’t like something just because someone else says I should and I don’t dislike something i’m told is wrong. Equally, I don’t strive to be different. You have to grow what you like or else you’ll get bored quickly so that isn’t really my issue. I am really just curious as to what I would be missing out on by only really dealing with British deciduous material.

It’s funny that you mention oaks being “hot” as it was the first species I thought of as wanting to turn into a bonsai. They stand out in the landscape and are head and shoulders above any of our other trees in terms of presence. Therefore, a miniature grand old oak has always appealed to me. Just a coincidence as I very much do not have my finger on the pulse. I have recently collected a small turkey oak to practice on as they are faster growing than an english oak. Regardless, I’m still young enough for patience to be a virtue :p

Assuming I stick around long enough, I have already accepted that there will be an ever rotating stock of trees and species, no doubt. It’s easy to plan for only a few of this or that, but then the bug will get stronger in spring and i’ll realise that a small handful of plants just wont be growing quick enough, so it follows that more will be added. I just hope that in 40 years time i’ll have a collection to be snobbish about. Just wait til I get on to conifers...
So, your preference of tree species is heavily influenced by your environment. You like the trees you see growing around you. Fair enough. They may, or may not make good subjects for bonsai. I don’t know, because I don’t have any traditionally “English” tree species where I live.

I once had a “lively” conversation about tree styling with Will Baddely, and I said that a tree he had styled didn’t look like any tree I had ever seen. And he told me I was nuts. Well... upon further research, I found out that hawthorns in England did grow the way he styled his bonsai. We don’t have anything that grows like that here, so I couldn’t relate to it!
 

Woocash

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So, your preference of tree species is heavily influenced by your environment. You like the trees you see growing around you. Fair enough. They may, or may not make good subjects for bonsai. I don’t know, because I don’t have any traditionally “English” tree species where I live.

I once had a “lively” conversation about tree styling with Will Baddely, and I said that a tree he had styled didn’t look like any tree I had ever seen. And he told me I was nuts. Well... upon further research, I found out that hawthorns in England did grow the way he styled his bonsai. We don’t have anything that grows like that here, so I couldn’t relate to it!
Exactly. It’s pretty much the first thing I like to observe when I go to a foreign land. You can tell so much about the country from the trees and plants that grow there.

That’s what made me chuckle about the tropical comments earlier. Having travelled to Thailand and Cambodia a few years ago and visiting Angkor Wat, I am really looking forward to trying to recreate this or something like it (not my picture, mine are on a memory card in a drawer somewhere)
2CFFE8B1-A8BB-44A9-87BF-098D3D1C6B43.jpeg
You see things like like it on Indiana Jones or something and don’t really take it seriously because it’s all part of the look then you go somewhere like this and man those things are huge and imposing and awe inspiring. (Anybody seen any root over temple style bonsai before?) We’ve all seen nature try and claim back some ruinous building somewhere, but these guys had a few hundred years to do so before the place was “rediscovered”.

Basically, you are right. It’s easy to dismiss things without seeing them for yourself so maybe i’ll look harder when it comes to some of the more shrubby type bonsai styles and trees inspired by foreign lands.
 

rockm

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The thing is, those azaleas just don’t look like any trees that I have seen. I am loathe to use the word but they remind me of a caricature of a tree, even without the flowers, because I could never go into the wild and find a tree like that anywhere, to my knowledge. (I am very willing to be proved wrong by the way) The buxus looks great. That really does look like a small tree, with all the familiarity of standing under a nice large old oak.

Everything you said about tree species being harder to tame in small scale makes perfect sense though. Maybe I just have my ideas of what a bonsai is actually supposed to be all backwards and the mimicking of trees as opposed to miniature versions of trees is the aim of the game?

To be fair, even if that is the case my aim will be to produce craggy old things that remind me of England rather than to create ‘true’ bonsai (here we go again). Perhaps a trip to Japan may change that...
you have a popular pre-conceived idea of what bonsai is.It is NOT "mimicking" or "miniaturizing" trees. It is humans using a medium to convey an idea, mostly what THEY SEE as nature, conflict, sadness, happiness, etc., or what they see in their mind's eye--using the trees around them for inspiration. That view of your landscape is not only the landscape. It is how you see it and feel it. Free yourself from trying to replicate a tree.

Just like painting is not photography, bonsai is not rote replication of a tree, only smaller.
 
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Is a dogwood a short tree or a tall shrub?? Who’s to say boxwood and azaleas aren’t very short trees?? Wait.... oh ya, who cares!

The snobby thing.... well when you look at jbp or Japanese maples, they generally cost more than a boxwood, or a honey suckle. Well there more sought after, rare, and you can’t find them just growing on the side of the road.

I like all species that reduce well. On my benches you’ll find at least 20 different species. Won’t find any boxwood though. Not that I dislike them, I just act snobby towards them I believe... because they’re in every front yard in my state! but then again so are Japanese maples! lol

So as stated above, have fun doing what you do.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Is a dogwood a short tree or a tall shrub?? Who’s to say boxwood and azaleas aren’t very short trees?? Wait.... oh ya, who cares!

The snobby thing.... well when you look at jbp or Japanese maples, they generally cost more than a boxwood, or a honey suckle. Well there more sought after, rare, and you can’t find them just growing on the side of the road.

I like all species that reduce well. On my benches you’ll find at least 20 different species. Won’t find any boxwood though. Not that I dislike them, I just act snobby towards them I believe... because they’re in every front yard in my state! but then again so are Japanese maples! lol

So as stated above, have fun doing what you do.

I hate boxwood and schefflera myself, they are boring.

However, I ended up with a 40 year old fat trunk boxwood in a trade, were the donor gave me the boxwood in exchange for me allowing him to dig up a wisteria vine from my yard, a wisteria I thought had zero potential. Saved my back from the task of digging, and got rid of an ugly vine. He ended up giving up on making it bonsai, it is now climbing over one side of his house. I keep the boxwood alive simply because trunks that old are hard to come by. I suppose one of these days I will have to style it.

Key to learning all phases of bonsai -
Don't get lost raising young material. At some point invest in a tree that is a fully mature, exhibition quality tree. The techniques needed are very different than those needed for young material. Best place to get well aged material is a club auction where a elderly member is breaking up their collection. This is when you can get mature and even "post exhibition" quality bonsai at modest prices. Modest being hundreds rather than thousands of dollars. The tree doesn't have to a national winner, but it needs to be in the last stages of being developed as bonsai. One does not have to wait 40 years to grow their own exhibition stage, past all the styling phases, tree. One can simply buy a tree in that phase. Or trade labor. Or arrange monthly payments. Don't let price cause you to dismiss looking for an older tree. Once you have kept trees in bonsai pots alive more than 5 years, it is time to start keeping an eye out for picking up at least one or two already mature bonsai. The opportunity might not present itself more than once or twice a year, so start looking while you are still young. This paragraph is a nod to RockM, as this is his frequent comment.

Learning all aspects of bonsai is more about trees in different phases of development, rather than a great diversity of species. Seedlings, pre-bonsai, trees that have had their first styling. Trees that have gone through several cycles of styling and growing out. Trees that have been shown at bonsai shows, and maintained in a "fixed style" for a decade or more. And trees that have aged out of their "fixed style" and are no longer exhibit quality due to having aged past the suitability of their former exhibition style. Each of these phases calls for different bonsai techniques. You can learn these techniques with as little as one deciduous, one juniper and one pine in each of these phases. You don't need a lot of species diversity to learn all aspects of bonsai. You DO NEED trees of all LEVELS OF MATURITY to learn all the aspects of bonsai.

You can raise seedlings for 50 years and pass through all these phases of bonsai maturity or you can find, buy, trade, or otherwise acquire examples in each phase of bonsai maturity, and learn it all in as little as say 5 or 10 years. An internship in Japan at a bonsai nursery lets one experience bonsai at all levels of maturity. That is the point of a bonsai apprenticeship. But one does not have to go to Japan to find material at each level of maturity. With patience, one can get material anywhere in the North America by networking with others.
 

Warpig

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I hate boxwood and schefflera myself, they are boring.

However, I ended up with a 40 year old fat trunk boxwood in a trade, were the donor gave me the boxwood in exchange for me allowing him to dig up a wisteria vine from my yard, a wisteria I thought had zero potential. Saved my back from the task of digging, and got rid of an ugly vine. He ended up giving up on making it bonsai, it is now climbing over one side of his house. I keep the boxwood alive simply because trunks that old are hard to come by. I suppose one of these days I will have to style it.

Key to learning all phases of bonsai -
Don't get lost raising young material. At some point invest in a tree that is a fully mature, exhibition quality tree. The techniques needed are very different than those needed for young material. Best place to get well aged material is a club auction where a elderly member is breaking up their collection. This is when you can get mature and even "post exhibition" quality bonsai at modest prices. Modest being hundreds rather than thousands of dollars. The tree doesn't have to a national winner, but it needs to be in the last stages of being developed as bonsai. One does not have to wait 40 years to grow their own exhibition stage, past all the styling phases, tree. One can simply buy a tree in that phase. Or trade labor. Or arrange monthly payments. Don't let price cause you to dismiss looking for an older tree. Once you have kept trees in bonsai pots alive more than 5 years, it is time to start keeping an eye out for picking up at least one or two already mature bonsai. The opportunity might not present itself more than once or twice a year, so start looking while you are still young. This paragraph is a nod to RockM, as this is his frequent comment.

Learning all aspects of bonsai is more about trees in different phases of development, rather than a great diversity of species. Seedlings, pre-bonsai, trees that have had their first styling. Trees that have gone through several cycles of styling and growing out. Trees that have been shown at bonsai shows, and maintained in a "fixed style" for a decade or more. And trees that have aged out of their "fixed style" and are no longer exhibit quality due to having aged past the suitability of their former exhibition style. Each of these phases calls for different bonsai techniques. You can learn these techniques with as little as one deciduous, one juniper and one pine in each of these phases. You don't need a lot of species diversity to learn all aspects of bonsai. You DO NEED trees of all LEVELS OF MATURITY to learn all the aspects of bonsai.

You can raise seedlings for 50 years and pass through all these phases of bonsai maturity or you can find, buy, trade, or otherwise acquire examples in each phase of bonsai maturity, and learn it all in as little as say 5 or 10 years. An internship in Japan at a bonsai nursery lets one experience bonsai at all levels of maturity. That is the point of a bonsai apprenticeship. But one does not have to go to Japan to find material at each level of maturity. With patience, one can get material anywhere in the North America by networking with others.
Vary good advice! Well worth keeping in mind when looking for that next project.
 

Woocash

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I hate boxwood and schefflera myself, they are boring.

However, I ended up with a 40 year old fat trunk boxwood in a trade, were the donor gave me the boxwood in exchange for me allowing him to dig up a wisteria vine from my yard, a wisteria I thought had zero potential. Saved my back from the task of digging, and got rid of an ugly vine. He ended up giving up on making it bonsai, it is now climbing over one side of his house. I keep the boxwood alive simply because trunks that old are hard to come by. I suppose one of these days I will have to style it.

Key to learning all phases of bonsai -
Don't get lost raising young material. At some point invest in a tree that is a fully mature, exhibition quality tree. The techniques needed are very different than those needed for young material. Best place to get well aged material is a club auction where a elderly member is breaking up their collection. This is when you can get mature and even "post exhibition" quality bonsai at modest prices. Modest being hundreds rather than thousands of dollars. The tree doesn't have to a national winner, but it needs to be in the last stages of being developed as bonsai. One does not have to wait 40 years to grow their own exhibition stage, past all the styling phases, tree. One can simply buy a tree in that phase. Or trade labor. Or arrange monthly payments. Don't let price cause you to dismiss looking for an older tree. Once you have kept trees in bonsai pots alive more than 5 years, it is time to start keeping an eye out for picking up at least one or two already mature bonsai. The opportunity might not present itself more than once or twice a year, so start looking while you are still young. This paragraph is a nod to RockM, as this is his frequent comment.

Learning all aspects of bonsai is more about trees in different phases of development, rather than a great diversity of species. Seedlings, pre-bonsai, trees that have had their first styling. Trees that have gone through several cycles of styling and growing out. Trees that have been shown at bonsai shows, and maintained in a "fixed style" for a decade or more. And trees that have aged out of their "fixed style" and are no longer exhibit quality due to having aged past the suitability of their former exhibition style. Each of these phases calls for different bonsai techniques. You can learn these techniques with as little as one deciduous, one juniper and one pine in each of these phases. You don't need a lot of species diversity to learn all aspects of bonsai. You DO NEED trees of all LEVELS OF MATURITY to learn all the aspects of bonsai.

You can raise seedlings for 50 years and pass through all these phases of bonsai maturity or you can find, buy, trade, or otherwise acquire examples in each phase of bonsai maturity, and learn it all in as little as say 5 or 10 years. An internship in Japan at a bonsai nursery lets one experience bonsai at all levels of maturity. That is the point of a bonsai apprenticeship. But one does not have to go to Japan to find material at each level of maturity. With patience, one can get material anywhere in the North America by networking with others.
Priceless. Thanks for that Leo. In my mind I had the idea of doing not a lot but buying cheap or collecting material and learning through the progress of those trees and developing some mature material. If in a few years, I feel like I can take the next step and purchase a “finished” article then maybe I’ll think more about doing so. As much as anything, having a tree or two that aren’t in developmental stages will give an aspiration for what can be achieved. Have to make sure I can keep them alive first.
 

Adair M

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I hate boxwood and schefflera myself, they are boring.

However, I ended up with a 40 year old fat trunk boxwood in a trade, were the donor gave me the boxwood in exchange for me allowing him to dig up a wisteria vine from my yard, a wisteria I thought had zero potential. Saved my back from the task of digging, and got rid of an ugly vine. He ended up giving up on making it bonsai, it is now climbing over one side of his house. I keep the boxwood alive simply because trunks that old are hard to come by. I suppose one of these days I will have to style it.

Key to learning all phases of bonsai -
Don't get lost raising young material. At some point invest in a tree that is a fully mature, exhibition quality tree. The techniques needed are very different than those needed for young material. Best place to get well aged material is a club auction where a elderly member is breaking up their collection. This is when you can get mature and even "post exhibition" quality bonsai at modest prices. Modest being hundreds rather than thousands of dollars. The tree doesn't have to a national winner, but it needs to be in the last stages of being developed as bonsai. One does not have to wait 40 years to grow their own exhibition stage, past all the styling phases, tree. One can simply buy a tree in that phase. Or trade labor. Or arrange monthly payments. Don't let price cause you to dismiss looking for an older tree. Once you have kept trees in bonsai pots alive more than 5 years, it is time to start keeping an eye out for picking up at least one or two already mature bonsai. The opportunity might not present itself more than once or twice a year, so start looking while you are still young. This paragraph is a nod to RockM, as this is his frequent comment.

Learning all aspects of bonsai is more about trees in different phases of development, rather than a great diversity of species. Seedlings, pre-bonsai, trees that have had their first styling. Trees that have gone through several cycles of styling and growing out. Trees that have been shown at bonsai shows, and maintained in a "fixed style" for a decade or more. And trees that have aged out of their "fixed style" and are no longer exhibit quality due to having aged past the suitability of their former exhibition style. Each of these phases calls for different bonsai techniques. You can learn these techniques with as little as one deciduous, one juniper and one pine in each of these phases. You don't need a lot of species diversity to learn all aspects of bonsai. You DO NEED trees of all LEVELS OF MATURITY to learn all the aspects of bonsai.

You can raise seedlings for 50 years and pass through all these phases of bonsai maturity or you can find, buy, trade, or otherwise acquire examples in each phase of bonsai maturity, and learn it all in as little as say 5 or 10 years. An internship in Japan at a bonsai nursery lets one experience bonsai at all levels of maturity. That is the point of a bonsai apprenticeship. But one does not have to go to Japan to find material at each level of maturity. With patience, one can get material anywhere in the North America by networking with others.
Great post, Leo!

I have long advocated buying more mature material. This forum tends to celebrate those that can create bonsai from raw stock, but I feel that bonsai REALLY is all about maintaining trees in small pots indefinitely and keeping them healthy and attractive. Yes, we have to first GET bonsai in order to maintain them, but once you have bonsai, you have to learn how to maintain it, rejuvenate it, restyle it, etc. Trees outlive us, the bonsai we create today can (should) be the legacy trees that bonsai hobbiest will treasure long after we are gone.

I am honored to have some trees that have a “history”. I hope someday that someone will take pride in having one of “Adair’s Trees”.
 

Japonicus

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I was once told that a tree can be defined as any woody plant which, all things being well, will grow to in excess of 4 metres or 13 feet. I Don’t know how true that is, but to that end, I find myself only really getting excited by the prospect of bonsaiing plants in this category.
To above statement;
I've had this tree in my yard at least 11 years now.
It should be considered mature by now and stands under 1.5m.
I've not altered the vertical growth habit on either of these trees.
265253
Up hill from and next to it is a dwarf Eastern white pine that had been there as long, and half as tall.
They are trees. Is a dwarf person not a human? There's no line to be drawn save for in ones own mind.

I had to reread the 2nd paragraph to see if this thread was going in the direction you set sail for
and after doing so, I think it has. It's good to get others view points.

Hobby, art, expression, learn and lessons learned, love/care, pushing your envelope, striving to do better, fun and pride
as well as many other points listed prior here, should cultivate your experience with bonsai. Many many sub points to each I numerated as a nut shell. One nut in the can I am. :)
 

eb84327

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I have seen azaleas 15 and 18 feet tall in the Carolinas.

we have some on the campus i work @ that are almost 10' (north Idaho) I think they would be even taller but the LMTS keep them at that height. wonderful white flowers.
 

Forsoothe!

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We train whatever is trainable. Is the origin, "tree in a dish" a reference to "something that looks like a tree (in a dish)", or "something normally too big to grow in dish (in a dish)", or "something woody (in a dish)", or "something normally not growing in a dish (in a dish)"? What did these words mean/how were they used when the art began in Japan? Where's a Japanese etymologist when you really need one? You can grow a tree in a dish like it grows in nature, and it will look stupid like a stick because it wants to grow tall and would until it fell over. That would be ~natural~ and look like crap. "Training" had to begin with the first attempt in India 5,000 years ago (how many did they kill before the soil wars started?). Bonsai is, more than anything else, is training a plant to look like something in particular: styles like Hokidachi, Chokkan, Fukinagashi, and sizes like mame, shohin, two-man, etc. Purists also demand that trees be in "bonsai" pots that have feet, are specific shapes, styles, colors, finishes, etc., specific to species and/or style of plants. Chrysanthemums, the symbol of the Emperor, make lovely, if temporary, colorful bonsai as do Coleus.
 
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