Species Study - Acer Freemani

[HorseloverFat]

These Specific Species Study Threads will serve for the documentation and discussion of growing young plants, upwards, together, towards a common “TinyTree” presentation goal.

Acer Freemani....

One of my favorites... But not very understood..

Let's talk about/share them!

(When I have some full leaves) I will 'post up' also).

 

[Kanorin]

I have a forest of these that I've been growing from seed for 2 years - I originally thought they were acer rubrum, but I think most are probably hybrid rubrum x silver aka "Freemani."

So far, in my Missouri climate, they are quite indestructible (got that hybrid vigor). Another thing I've noticed is that while Japanese Maples will basically stop growing from about July 1 to September 15th or so (High temperatures are usually between 90 and 105 degrees here), these will keep growing through the summer heat, maybe adding a node or two every two weeks to the leader.

Soon I'm gonna try ~90% defoliation (fully defoliate the crown, keep a few half leaves on the lower branches) and see if I can get some more ramification and a smaller second flush of leaves. I'll post some pictures!

 

[HorseloverFat]

Awesome!!

Soon, when all my seedling's leaves are ACTUALLY opened/matured.. I'll be able to ID which (if any) of them appear to be Freemani.

I will also be taking cuttings off of that naturally stunted Autumn Blaze I've observed( a good 1/3 - 1/2 smaller than the others ((there are many)) planted in my area). I tried taking late-winter cuttings of said specimen last year.. unsuccessfully.

 

[Kanorin]

Another interesting observation: while the spring push generated long internodes for me last year, the growth that it put on during the hot summer months had quite small nodes. Might be unique to my climate


defoliated today. Let’s see how it responds

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Ok exactly how do you tell a freeman . In my town there are lots of silver and some rubrum right on my front lawn is one of each . The red seems to produce reds . I have in the past grown some oddballs from the silver . But it seems more just variations of silver had a few once very deep cut leaves . So the basic question is what exactly considered a freeman most info is inconclusive

 

[Kanorin]

Since it's a hybrid, there is no single definining characteristic of them except for some traits between red and silver maples. There are a wide range of shapes the leaves can take, for example. They are sometimes sold as "autumn blaze" maples in the nursery trade.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

First I’m not trying to be a asshole . Just trying to understand ( I know I’m a asshole ) . If you grew your trees from seed how do you know it’s a hybrid . Looks like silver. I may be wrong but I would think multiple trees that are very similar are most likely not hybrids . My understanding of the hybrid Principle is the trees can vary a lot from seed and favour one parent or the other . So a group of hybrids from seed most likely will look very different from each other . Like I said just trying to learn what a freeman is . PS I like your trees In my experience silver is a native very very adapted to its home range . Flowers and buds very early grows very vigorous all season . Gas are climate nailed

 

[Kanorin]

First I’m not trying to be a asshole . Just trying to understand ( I know I’m a asshole ) . If you grew your trees from seed how do you know it’s a hybrid . Looks like silver. I may be wrong but I would think multiple trees that are very similar are most likely not hybrids . My understanding of the hybrid Principle is the trees can vary a lot from seed and favour one parent or the other . So a group of hybrids from seed most likely will look very different from each other . Like I said just trying to learn what a freeman is . PS I like your trees In my experience silver is a native very very adapted to its home range . Flowers and buds very early grows very vigorous all season . Gas are climate nailed

Good question. When I first gathered the seeds I didn’t know as much as I do now. I now know that some of the samaras we collected were from an “autumn blaze” parent tree. Some were collected from a red maple. There are multiple other red, silver, sugar, and hybrids on the street. I probably have a smorgasbord of acer genetics in there.

I started with about 40 of these and after their first year I sorted them by leaf shape into four different groupings and the following spring I separated them out into four separate plantings and gave two of them away. I think somewhere in the above thread is a picture of the four leaf shapes that I identified and sorted them into. Keep in mind There were way more than four total shapes, but there were four major shape categories. That’s why all trees in this planting look pretty close.

 

[HorseloverFat]

There is a better answer than that, friends..

I just need to look at my Son's Field guide.. annnnd he's with G-ma and pa.

 

[HorseloverFat]

We can't find the field guide.

Maybe it's at mom's.

However, a stroll was taken, and two leaves were collected from two separate VERIFIED Acer Freemani 'Autumn Blaze'. (One Leaf each tree, multiple pics for documentation/contrast)

Here they are.

 

[Kanorin]

OK, here's a tough question that may not have a straightforward answer.
Acer x Freemani is not really a species (I think that's denoted by the x in the official name) , but rather it describes the F1 (first generation) cross of a silver and red maple.

What would we call the F1 generation of an Acer Freemani x Acer Rubrum?
Or what about the F1 of an Acer Freemani x unknown Acer parent (This is probably what my forest is).

I think technically, you could call them "Hybrid maples" or "Acer spp."

I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that it's challenging to compare notes on hybrid species. I don't even know exactly what I have growing in my pot.

 

[HorseloverFat]

OK, here's a tough question that may not have a straightforward answer.
Acer x Freemani is not really a species (I think that's denoted by the x in the official name) , but rather it describes the F1 (first generation) cross of a silver and red maple.

What would we call the F1 generation of an Acer Freemani x Acer Rubrum?
Or what about the F1 of an Acer Freemani x unknown Acer parent (This is probably what my forest is).

I think technically, you could call them "Hybrid maples" or "Acer spp."

I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that it's challenging to compare notes on hybrid species. I don't even know exactly what I have growing in my pot.

Exactly.. many in my pots are the "same specie".. but different parts of the RNA are read.

I think Silver is the genetically DOMINANT of the two.. at least when it comes "Freemani" foliage...

Much like any Platenoides (and I've HEARD Truncatum) cross-polls that I have seen... The "preferred stock" reads more platenoides traits, and this is good because Acer Platenoides (and I've heard, Truncatum) is wildly variable in and of itself.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

OK, here's a tough question that may not have a straightforward answer.
Acer x Freemani is not really a species (I think that's denoted by the x in the official name) , but rather it describes the F1 (first generation) cross of a silver and red maple.

What would we call the F1 generation of an Acer Freemani x Acer Rubrum?
Or what about the F1 of an Acer Freemani x unknown Acer parent (This is probably what my forest is).

I think technically, you could call them "Hybrid maples" or "Acer spp."

I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that it's challenging to compare notes on hybrid species. I don't even know exactly what I have growing in my pot.

To me the leaves look like silver you are not going to get a cross with sugar maple hard maple they seed in the fall red and silver are soft maples seed in the spring at same time other soft maples I assume are possible crosses but those are the main players there is southern and northern strains of both but I think it’s unlikely silver or red will cross with something else in nature mankind made of course is possible

 

[HorseloverFat]

To me the leaves look like silver you are not going to get a cross with sugar maple hard maple they seed in the fall red and silver are soft maples seed in the spring at same time other soft maples I assume are possible crosses but those are the main players there is southern and northern strains of both but I think it’s unlikely silver or red will cross with something else in nature mankind made of course is possible

Nice.. I didn't consider this!

 

[Frozentreehugger]

So there was crazy storm on weekend here lots of wind lots of tree destroyed . Everything of mine cottage and house both fine. Curious about the F maple on the left is normal silver maple seed on the right is rubrum from my front yard tree the rubric is slightly premature from storm so you guys have a hybrid example

 

[Leprous Garden]

In my eyes freemanii looks like a red maple with silver maple foliage. Not sure about the fruits. Further hybrids likewise would be neither clearly saccharinum not rubrum

 

[Gabler]

In my experience, silver maples are very deeply lobed; red maples are less prominently lobed, with two lobes at the base that are barely more than serrations; and the hybrids have five pronounced lobes but without sinuses that cut almost back to the petiole as in a silver maple.

Like oaks, they are very promiscuous. Hybrids are more common in my area than “pure” bred trees of either parent species. The ”pure“ parent species are mostly landscape trees propagated at a nursery. The hybrid babies are typically fertile, though their offspring skew toward red maple characteristics, suggesting they are interbreeding with nearby red maples but not with themselves or each other. Many offspring are right in the middle, however. They have the characteristics of both red and silver maples at about a 50%/50% split. I can’t say for sure whether they are able to self-fertilize, nor at what percentage of which parent species’ genetics.

What I can say is that, in my geographic area, they grow significantly faster than either parent by a difference of several feet per year, they tolerate an incredible amount of abuse, and they thrive in all temperatures. I keep mine on benches exposed to wind through the winter, and they explode with growth in early spring, continuing without pause through the summer. The early growth is not sensitive to frost like a Japanese maple, though they might not appreciate a hard freeze. On days over 90 degrees, growing tips will wilt slightly. This is to protect the meristem from sunburn by turning it downward to be shaded by leaves. It will immediately perk back up and resume growing vigorously as the sun descends in the late afternoon and early evening.

If you remove a leaf, it will grow a new branch from that location. If you chop the tree back hard, it will produce shoots from everywhere, including between nodes. On a tree I collected without feeder roots, chopped, and wired in the same year, I had a small area of dieback of cambium without branches above it to draw sap. I should not have rubbed off all of the buds that formed in the area, but let the tree recover and waited to prune off the resulting twigs. I chopped again below the dieback, and the tree hasn’t skipped a beat.

 

[HorseloverFat]

In my experience, silver maples are very deeply lobed; red maples are less prominently lobed, with two lobes at the base that are barely more than serrations; and the hybrids have five pronounced lobes but without sinuses that cut almost back to the petiole as in a silver maple.

AWESOME GABES.. (yup, "Gabes") THANK YOU!!

 

[HorseloverFat]

Okeeeeeeee dokeeee.....
I will share some partially pre-bare shots, as well as provide footnotes of sorts on my recent work/experimentation/observation of Freemani.

But I have been discussing Freemani (and sharing some of these same pictures, I apologize) quite a bit recently... So if you have any questions about my experiences or observations of response to certain methods.... Lemme know *finger guns*

So... It turns out, that a decent number of my assumed Rubrum AND Saccharinum, were actually Freemani... As helped to pin down exact ID from discussions in this thread, actually. Thanks guys!!

That FIRST generation behaves VERY wildly (even throws separate Red and Silver leafsets, "trying to find itself", I say. ) and has a HUGE tendency for variance.. across the board. Here are SOME of the Freemani that I care for. (Some are photos of landscape stock)



















That LAST one's tiny low-growth has about 5 nodes. This "species" has shown me VERY adequate reduction, consideration-wide (even petioles)!

I am personally categorizing Freemani as AT LEAST as "suitable" as select candidates of Acer Rubrum.

@Kanorin , here is a shot of three that were planted and sprouted at the same time in spring... But THESE are seeds taken from a Mature Freemani... NOT from my usual picking spot in a field between a wall of planted Red and planted Silver maples... (Bay Beach Wildlife Sanctuary, actually)..

While they still vary quite much (that far left one displayed similar variegation patterns on each leaf, but became way less apparent as the colors changed), they leaf shape/size/ color, remains fairly, systemically consistent. NEAT, RIGHT!?



Oh! Here's another one I had shared recently, regarding the deepening colors of Freemani Landscape stock.



Please! Ask any questions if you have them, I don't exactly remember what was all discussed in the other threads.

 

[jandslegate]

This thread is awesome. I'm at work but im going to dive in deeper when I'm home. I have a silver and autumn blaze in my backyard so this info I've picked up is promising.