Species Study - Acer Platenoides/Acer Rubrum

Frozentreehugger

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Pic is for growth potential of platinuods with known lifespan . Tree has nice broad spread above top of 2 story house about 25 to 30 feet grown in full sun zone 4. 18 inch trunk was a 3 inch trunk about 5 feet high fresh nursery planted tree when I moved here 17 years ago
 

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Frozentreehugger

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So we only learn from failure . I dug up a young rubrum estimate about 4 to 6 years old . Was un impressed instead of roots going into the forest floor . Had a long tap root shallow thru the forest floor debree. . I’m confident I could have easily recovered it in a long box . Made the choice to drastic cut the root . More as a experiment to see if we can be more aggressive with them . It budded out for about a week . But wilted last week . ( was unseasoned hot record breaking weather . Don’t think it’s going to make it . I’ll keep it watered see what happens but looks like we have to be more prudent
 

SC1989

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Check out what THIS Rubrum is doin'.View attachment 437478
What's up with the green leaf margin? Usually mine green after they get bigger.... climate maybe. There's studies about how the cold perhaps gives us leaf varieties. Most rubrum I find up here are 5 lobed and double serrated. Easily confused with silver, sugar and even Norway if you don't know what to look for. Love these little guys
 

HorseloverFat

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What's up with the green leaf margin? Usually mine green after they get bigger.... climate maybe. There's studies about how the cold perhaps gives us leaf varieties. Most rubrum I find up here are 5 lobed and double serrated. Easily confused with silver, sugar and even Norway if you don't know what to look for. Love these little guys
This is exactly what I'm speaking of in the "selects"..

I remember this one from
last year.. it's leaves were NEVER "solid"... always seemingly variegated around the margins like that..

Time will tell!

🤓
 

HorseloverFat

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I'm also excited to see how this Rubrum project, (assembled high-summer 2021) will "come together"949828E8-D2B0-48F2-910E-1BF189A5E899.jpeg
 

SC1989

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The last picture I posted there's a third little guy but I had to cut him down to an inch. Cold dieback. I was going for the whole clump fusion, minus the wire. I know they're spaced far, but not once they bulk up!
 

Frozentreehugger

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Shade and misting go a loooonnnggg way in summer collecting. We've collected rubrum and root pruned in summer. The only hardier maple is the amur I reckon.
Was curious looked up the hardiness . Silver and spicatum dirr says zone 3 rubrum
3b sugar 4 When you say you have collected rubrum in summer what do you consider summer and what’s your care very curious never tried a Dicid tree anytime other than spring before buds
 

Frozentreehugger

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Sugar stick in a pot have my doubts about its survival. Country road rock crack tree no idea when it was chainsawed chopped estimate about 4 years ago would have liked to have got more roots but we will see
Updated this tree dug before leaf budding out it is not sugar but silver should have known from the buds and growth habit but I’m a idiot .also was strange location was sorounded. By sugar
 

SC1989

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Was curious looked up the hardiness . Silver and spicatum dirr says zone 3 rubrum
3b sugar 4 When you say you have collected rubrum in summer what do you consider summer and what’s your care very curious never tried a Dicid tree anytime other than spring before buds
Frigging July lol. 80 degrees. Shade, wind protection for 2 weeks. Misting once or twice a day. They could survive with less, super tough
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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By hiding out in your special "Tiny Trees" sub forum, away from the seasoned bonsai growers you guys are missing out on getting input from those who have "been there, and got the T-Shirt".

Look at threads started by Mach5 - Sergio, his Japanese maples are among the best by any USA artist. Sergio is a BNut regular and can be "summoned" for advice with the simple @ sign and Mach5. William Valavanis is also highly regarded for his maple work, he IS THE ONE who introduced 'Koto Hime' and a couple other Japanese maple cultivars to USA some 30 or 40 years ago. You need to look at and learn more about Japanese maples, as they really do define deciduous bonsai, Japanese bonsai grew up around the Japanese maple. There is much to learn in how JM are styled and techniques that could be applied to North American species. Pay more attention to JM techniques, you don't need to reinvent the wheel.

Acer platenoides - excellent for larger scale bonsai, often used by European bonsai growers, as it is one of their favorite native trees for bonsai. When you break a leaf petiole, the milky sap immediately distinguishes it from Acer saccharum, the North American Sugar maple. Otherwise the leaves are fairly similar. Walter Pall has a number of magnificent examples in his galleries. Look through Walter's blogs.

Acer saccharum - Sugar Maple - as bonsai is really only good for largest sizes, over 4 feet tall to get proportions correct. Leaves do not reduce easily. Hard to control internode length. Many have tried with this one, and generally had little success unless they went for largest size bonsai. Acer nigrum - rock maple or black maple, slightly better as bonsai, but still best for only largest trees.

Acer saccharinum - silver maple - a complete waste of time and effort. The silver maple lacks the one trait that "worthy maple species" have, silver maple has no autumn color. Leaves go from green to brown, with at best a brief glimpse of yellow for part of a day on the way to brown. The other maples will give you a week or more of reds, yellows, oranges, or other colors in a nice autumnal display. Silver maple is a drab tree, with no autumn pay off for all the work one puts into them.

Acer rubrum - proving to be good for medium to large size bonsai. Spring and autumn colors are good.

Acer x freemanii - (rubrum x saccharinum) - not as colorful as Acer rubrum, growth is more weedy, favoring the silver maple parent, but some of the spring and autumn color of the rubrum parent does come through. Wood is less brittle, so it is easier to wire than silver maple. While an improvement on silver maple, if one can get Acer rubrum they would be better investing time in that species

Acer negundo - box elder - weedy in growth habit, soft wood as for silver maple, a very nice example as bonsai was shown on BNUT nearly a decade ago, it was grown and developed in New Mexico. Again it was a larger specimen, which was necessary to get long internodes to be in proportion, something over 3 feet tall and wide. If anyone remembers the link please post here.
 

HorseloverFat

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By hiding out in your special "Tiny Trees" sub forum, away from the seasoned bonsai growers you guys are missing out on getting input from those who have "been there, and got the T-Shirt".

Look at threads started by Mach5 - Sergio, his Japanese maples are among the best by any USA artist. Sergio is a BNut regular and can be "summoned" for advice with the simple @ sign and Mach5. William Valavanis is also highly regarded for his maple work, he IS THE ONE who introduced 'Koto Hime' and a couple other Japanese maple cultivars to USA some 30 or 40 years ago. You need to look at and learn more about Japanese maples, as they really do define deciduous bonsai, Japanese bonsai grew up around the Japanese maple. There is much to learn in how JM are styled and techniques that could be applied to North American species. Pay more attention to JM techniques, you don't need to reinvent the wheel.

Acer platenoides - excellent for larger scale bonsai, often used by European bonsai growers, as it is one of their favorite native trees for bonsai. When you break a leaf petiole, the milky sap immediately distinguishes it from Acer saccharum, the North American Sugar maple. Otherwise the leaves are fairly similar. Walter Pall has a number of magnificent examples in his galleries. Look through Walter's blogs.

Acer saccharum - Sugar Maple - as bonsai is really only good for largest sizes, over 4 feet tall to get proportions correct. Leaves do not reduce easily. Hard to control internode length. Many have tried with this one, and generally had little success unless they went for largest size bonsai. Acer nigrum - rock maple or black maple, slightly better as bonsai, but still best for only largest trees.

Acer saccharinum - silver maple - a complete waste of time and effort. The silver maple lacks the one trait that "worthy maple species" have, silver maple has no autumn color. Leaves go from green to brown, with at best a brief glimpse of yellow for part of a day on the way to brown. The other maples will give you a week or more of reds, yellows, oranges, or other colors in a nice autumnal display. Silver maple is a drab tree, with no autumn pay off for all the work one puts into them.

Acer rubrum - proving to be good for medium to large size bonsai. Spring and autumn colors are good.

Acer x freemanii - (rubrum x saccharinum) - not as colorful as Acer rubrum, growth is more weedy, favoring the silver maple parent, but some of the spring and autumn color of the rubrum parent does come through. Wood is less brittle, so it is easier to wire than silver maple. While an improvement on silver maple, if one can get Acer rubrum they would be better investing time in that species

Acer negundo - box elder - weedy in growth habit, soft wood as for silver maple, a very nice example as bonsai was shown on BNUT nearly a decade ago, it was grown and developed in New Mexico. Again it was a larger specimen, which was necessary to get long internodes to be in proportion, something over 3 feet tall and wide. If anyone remembers the link please post here.

I LOVE Palmatums...

But even my cold frame IN a cold frame kills Bloodgoods..

I will be striving for more proper overwintering conditions...

While I'm a USDA 5...

I'm an AHS 2-3..

Rubrums and platenoides (in small-medium containers) need considerable protection up here.. or they don't wake up..

My FAVORITE maple is Ginnala or any Tatarican...

But we don't need a species study to prove how awesome they are.

That's more what these studies are for... compiling information on "less frequently utilized" species..

But You're right!

I should call some of the "Big Boys" here... I just want all "my folks" to be treated with respect... And I believe many that you mentioned would be GREAT for that.

Buuuuut I always feel like a "Douche" summoning Bill Valvanis...

😂😂
 

Frozentreehugger

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By hiding out in your special "Tiny Trees" sub forum, away from the seasoned bonsai growers you guys are missing out on getting input from those who have "been there, and got the T-Shirt".

Look at threads started by Mach5 - Sergio, his Japanese maples are among the best by any USA artist. Sergio is a BNut regular and can be "summoned" for advice with the simple @ sign and Mach5. William Valavanis is also highly regarded for his maple work, he IS THE ONE who introduced 'Koto Hime' and a couple other Japanese maple cultivars to USA some 30 or 40 years ago. You need to look at and learn more about Japanese maples, as they really do define deciduous bonsai, Japanese bonsai grew up around the Japanese maple. There is much to learn in how JM are styled and techniques that could be applied to North American species. Pay more attention to JM techniques, you don't need to reinvent the wheel.

Acer platenoides - excellent for larger scale bonsai, often used by European bonsai growers, as it is one of their favorite native trees for bonsai. When you break a leaf petiole, the milky sap immediately distinguishes it from Acer saccharum, the North American Sugar maple. Otherwise the leaves are fairly similar. Walter Pall has a number of magnificent examples in his galleries. Look through Walter's blogs.

Acer saccharum - Sugar Maple - as bonsai is really only good for largest sizes, over 4 feet tall to get proportions correct. Leaves do not reduce easily. Hard to control internode length. Many have tried with this one, and generally had little success unless they went for largest size bonsai. Acer nigrum - rock maple or black maple, slightly better as bonsai, but still best for only largest trees.

Acer saccharinum - silver maple - a complete waste of time and effort. The silver maple lacks the one trait that "worthy maple species" have, silver maple has no autumn color. Leaves go from green to brown, with at best a brief glimpse of yellow for part of a day on the way to brown. The other maples will give you a week or more of reds, yellows, oranges, or other colors in a nice autumnal display. Silver maple is a drab tree, with no autumn pay off for all the work one puts into them.

Acer rubrum - proving to be good for medium to large size bonsai. Spring and autumn colors are good.

Acer x freemanii - (rubrum x saccharinum) - not as colorful as Acer rubrum, growth is more weedy, favoring the silver maple parent, but some of the spring and autumn color of the rubrum parent does come through. Wood is less brittle, so it is easier to wire than silver maple. While an improvement on silver maple, if one can get Acer rubrum they would be better investing time in that species

Acer negundo - box elder - weedy in growth habit, soft wood as for silver maple, a very nice example as bonsai was shown on BNUT nearly a decade ago, it was grown and developed in New Mexico. Again it was a larger specimen, which was necessary to get long internodes to be in proportion, something over 3 feet tall and wide. If anyone remembers the link please post here.
Leo no one is hiding from anything or anyone I really respect your opinion . And you are correct about the wealth of knowledge of JM . And we are very lucky there is so much world class . Practicing artists here so welling to share there knowledge . On a great many species of trees . And we all should keep learning so off course it’s a great to have experts to seek advice from . As you and others have said. Also as you and others have said most are not interested in these species . For multiple reasons . People do bonsai for multiple reasons same as other hobbies and art forms. In a forum such as this there is nothing wrong with people having a chat specific for select species that others have no interest in . .
 

SC1989

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By hiding out in your special "Tiny Trees" sub forum, away from the seasoned bonsai growers you guys are missing out on getting input from those who have "been there, and got the T-Shirt".

Look at threads started by Mach5 - Sergio, his Japanese maples are among the best by any USA artist. Sergio is a BNut regular and can be "summoned" for advice with the simple @ sign and Mach5. William Valavanis is also highly regarded for his maple work, he IS THE ONE who introduced 'Koto Hime' and a couple other Japanese maple cultivars to USA some 30 or 40 years ago. You need to look at and learn more about Japanese maples, as they really do define deciduous bonsai, Japanese bonsai grew up around the Japanese maple. There is much to learn in how JM are styled and techniques that could be applied to North American species. Pay more attention to JM techniques, you don't need to reinvent the wheel.

Acer platenoides - excellent for larger scale bonsai, often used by European bonsai growers, as it is one of their favorite native trees for bonsai. When you break a leaf petiole, the milky sap immediately distinguishes it from Acer saccharum, the North American Sugar maple. Otherwise the leaves are fairly similar. Walter Pall has a number of magnificent examples in his galleries. Look through Walter's blogs.

Acer saccharum - Sugar Maple - as bonsai is really only good for largest sizes, over 4 feet tall to get proportions correct. Leaves do not reduce easily. Hard to control internode length. Many have tried with this one, and generally had little success unless they went for largest size bonsai. Acer nigrum - rock maple or black maple, slightly better as bonsai, but still best for only largest trees.

Acer saccharinum - silver maple - a complete waste of time and effort. The silver maple lacks the one trait that "worthy maple species" have, silver maple has no autumn color. Leaves go from green to brown, with at best a brief glimpse of yellow for part of a day on the way to brown. The other maples will give you a week or more of reds, yellows, oranges, or other colors in a nice autumnal display. Silver maple is a drab tree, with no autumn pay off for all the work one puts into them.

Acer rubrum - proving to be good for medium to large size bonsai. Spring and autumn colors are good.

Acer x freemanii - (rubrum x saccharinum) - not as colorful as Acer rubrum, growth is more weedy, favoring the silver maple parent, but some of the spring and autumn color of the rubrum parent does come through. Wood is less brittle, so it is easier to wire than silver maple. While an improvement on silver maple, if one can get Acer rubrum they would be better investing time in that species

Acer negundo - box elder - weedy in growth habit, soft wood as for silver maple, a very nice example as bonsai was shown on BNUT nearly a decade ago, it was grown and developed in New Mexico. Again it was a larger specimen, which was necessary to get long internodes to be in proportion, something over 3 feet tall and wide. If anyone remembers the link please post here.
I agree with @HorseloverFat . I've kept a few palmatum alive, in my attic in the past few years. Might hang on to them. These seem to grow better here... As for hiding out, no , just growing my own/ collecting. Nothing too great yet but the seasoned vets still make me nervous. Introvert before covid
 

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HorseloverFat

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Guys, Leo is an ENORMOUS wealth of horticultural knowledge..

And SPECIFIC to cold weather..

So I(we) do not want to discourage his participation, here.,

I believe that by saying "hiding out" he meant.. We actually have a few decent discussions going, and have had for some time.. and it goes a few good scrolls and clicks away from MOST eyes.

He then gave us some Ideas of "Heavy Hitters" to call in...

Let's not forgot that @Leo in N E Illinois IS a heavy hitter HIMSELF...

He actually lost MOST of his Bonsai collection Within the past ten years or so (can't exactly remember the timeline, Ol)....A lot of people don't know this, or forget, because Leo, like a 'gangstah', doesn't really feel the need to defend himself in this manner.

I'm glad you are here, contributing, OL!

Thank You!
 

Frozentreehugger

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As I said I respect Leo a lot and he has helped me already with his knowledge . And I’m glad we have him and other experts to seek advice from . And I appreciate his involvement in this discussion. Other experts I am sure could input valuable advice . And I’m sure if we asked them specific questions they will be more than willing to help . But the fact remains there is very little interest in these trees . For the reasons we are aware of and these people are busy . Like all of us there involvement on this forum is completely up to them . Just as a Japanese Pine expert may have no interest in a discussion about Azaleas
 

Frozentreehugger

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I agree with @HorseloverFat . I've kept a few palmatum alive, in my attic in the past few years. Might hang on to them. These seem to grow better here... As for hiding out, no , just growing my own/ collecting. Nothing too great yet but the seasoned vets still make me nervous. Introvert before covid
What’s the big collected one bark looks way to dark to be rubrum
 
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