Species Study - Acer Saccharum/Acer Saccharinum

[HorseloverFat]

These Specific Species Study Threads will serve for the documentation and discussion of growing young plants, upwards, together, towards a common “TinyTree” presentation goal.

These two are elusive bonsai subjects and notoriously overlooked...

But LOVED, DEARLY by some...

So I thought we could explore why??

Let's post and discuss, friends..

These ones aren't in my EXACT "wheelhouse" but I know some (myself included) are really enjoying the discussion of different NA Acers..

 

[PA_Penjing]

There's a guy on youtube who grows a lot of silver maple and some rubrum. His name is either "boise bonsai" or "bonsai boise". He grows a lot of his trees from seedling and has achieved pretty impressive leaf reduction on both species. His videos are mostly fall color walk throughs, but he's the one who made me think "oh damn, the natives can work". That's based on leaf size alone, I'm not a huge fan of his aesthetic, but that's just a personal opinion.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

As I have said before there is red and silver in my town . When I have grown from seed the reds are all the same but the silver produces hybrids or silver and often variations in leaf . Like heavier cut lace leaf style ones . Seems the best source for variation is from very old nature trees younger trees don’t produce the odd stuff here . My fav is massive old tree down the street about 4 feet across the trunk it’s nebari. Is buckling the side walk On a side note silver is not considered a strong tree fast growth and crotch type Vs make them storm weak . But this is not the whole story here we have had multiple sugar and reds including my big sugar destroyed in summer storms and no damage to the silvers I think it’s the heavy canopy in at least the sugars case the silvers loss leaves and small branches but bend more in the wind but they are susceptible to break I. Winter frozen

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Here’s a cut leaf Japanese maple 10 gallon pot about 3 inches calliper trunk 3 .5 feet high take a look at the price bottom left That’s in a tree nursery in Ottawa which is zone 4 tree had broke buds before anything in nature so came out of a green house this is Covid inflation pricing

 

[Frozentreehugger]

These Specific Species Study Threads will serve for the documentation and discussion of growing young plants, upwards, together, towards a common “TinyTree” presentation goal.

These two are elusive bonsai subjects and notoriously overlooked...

But LOVED, DEARLY by some...

So I thought we could explore why??

Let's post and discuss, friends..

These ones aren't in my EXACT "wheelhouse" but I know some (myself included) are really enjoying the discussion of different NA Acers..

I think in the west especially North America we fail to recognize or appreciate are attachment to trees . For me a Canadian the sugar maple is the symbol of my country . And embedded in my psychic everything from childhood trips to my grandfathers farm in late winter to make maple syrup to the splendour of the fall colour when it’s a entire forest . To a maple forest in winter with snow on the ground and no leaves on the trees branches that don’t move in the breeze it is so silent you can hear the snow falling a peacefulness that has to be experienced to understand In the same token . We don’t have the same appreciation of say cherry blossoms as someone from Japan or English oak to a Englishman We lose sight of the fact these emotions bring us to bonsai . The fact that leaves don’t reduce as much as other species or there not as well known and used commonly as others is as pointless as discussing why a spruce tree is different then a pine it just is because it is

 

[HorseloverFat]

As I have said before there is red and silver in my town . When I have grown from seed the reds are all the same but the silver produces hybrids or silver and often variations in leaf . Like heavier cut lace leaf style ones . Seems the best source for variation is from very old nature trees younger trees don’t produce the odd stuff here . My fav is massive old tree down the street about 4 feet across the trunk it’s nebari. Is buckling the side walk On a side note silver is not considered a strong tree fast growth and crotch type Vs make them storm weak . But this is not the whole story here we have had multiple sugar and reds including my big sugar destroyed in summer storms and no damage to the silvers I think it’s the heavy canopy in at least the sugars case the silvers loss leaves and small branches but bend more in the wind but they are susceptible to break I. Winter frozen

I've noticed this genetic variability in Silvers...

But I also notice them in Rubrums.. because Rubrum was my majority, last year.

Platenoides vary the most of any Acer seedlings I've observed.

(But, apparently, Truncatum ALSO follows Platenoides in this respect)

 

[HorseloverFat]

I think in the west especially North America we fail to recognize or appreciate are attachment to trees . For me a Canadian the sugar maple is the symbol of my country . And embedded in my psychic everything from childhood trips to my grandfathers farm in late winter to make maple syrup to the splendour of the fall colour when it’s a entire forest . To a maple forest in winter with snow on the ground and no leaves on the trees branches that don’t move in the breeze it is so silent you can hear the snow falling a peacefulness that has to be experienced to understand In the same token . We don’t have the same appreciation of say cherry blossoms as someone from Japan or English oak to a Englishman We lose sight of the fact these emotions bring us to bonsai . The fact that leaves don’t reduce as much as other species or there not as well known and used commonly as others is as pointless as discussing why a spruce tree is different then a pine it just is because it is

Well put!

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Here’s a cut leaf Japanese maple 10 gallon pot about 3 inches calliper trunk 3 .5 feet high take a look at the price bottom left That’s in a tree nursery in Ottawa which is zone 4 tree had broke buds before anything in nature so came out of a green house this is Covid inflation pricing

I just picked up several "Red Dragon" cultivars from Costco. 10 gallon trees. Red dissectums... $159.99 US. Last year they had 10 gallon "Crimson Queens" - also red dissectums - for $149.99. That's like $200 - $210 Canadian. Someone's ripping you off big time.

For me a Canadian the sugar maple is the symbol of my country .

Actually, the "maple leaf" that Canada uses for its flag is a stylized leaf that doesn't refer to any specific species. That's not to say that sugar maples aren't one of my favorite native tree species - but I actually looked up the Canadian flag several months ago out of curiosity and was disappointed that the maple leaf on the flag is just a graphic design.

 

[HorseloverFat]

I just picked up several "Red Dragon" cultivars from Costco. 10 gallon trees... $159.99 US.

Reminds me of 'Rush Hour' ...every time.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

I just picked up several "Red Dragon" cultivars from Costco. 10 gallon trees. Red dissectums... $159.99 US. Last year they had 10 gallon "Crimson Queens" - also red dissectums - for $149.99. That's like $200 - $210 Canadian. Someone's ripping you off big time.


Actually, the "maple leaf" that Canada uses for its flag is a stylized leaf that doesn't refer to any specific species. That's not to say that sugar maples aren't one of my favorite native tree species - but I actually looked up the Canadian flag several months ago out of curiosity and was disappointed that the maple leaf on the flag is just a graphic design.

You can’t buy Japanese maple at Costco here normally only better nurseries . And no I would not pay that . But it indicates the difficulty Covid has caused importing them . The maple leaf as the symbol of Canada is a little more complicated than the flag being a stylized example . Without getting political . But it’s interesting as far back as the 1800 the maple leaf was used and slowly became more popular as a symbol
. The sugar maple was definitely the inspiration for this . Mainly for its economic importance for syrup and it’s valuable wood . Most definitely started by the French in what is now Quebec . Interestingly the images often show a leaf with aerated edges more like a red maple but the sugar is the inspiration so you could say this was the more stylized version . Used as far back as the Boar war as a military symbol and decorated most of the tomb stones of Canadians in Europe in the first WW Buy the time of the flag in 1967 you could say it is a artistic simpler design or a more accurate sugar maple leaf . Or a stylized interpretation let’s say more political correct less French Canadian But there is no doubt the original inspiration is the sugar maple of eastern Canada

 

[Bonsai Nut]

At my childhood home in Northern Illinois, one of our neighbors lived on a farm where one field had been cleared and planted with sugar maples in the late 1800's. In the fall people would come from all over the area to take photos in and around the trees. Just grass and huge sugar maples. I went there once for photos with one of my high school girlfriends

Another early memory I have of sugar maples is going up to a dairy farm in Northern Wisconsin to camp in the early spring when the sap was just starting to run. We would tap trees and boil down the sap, and in exchange for our free labor (helping the farmer) we each got to keep one gallon of fresh syrup.

Though I like a lot of north American native trees, the sugar maple is my favorite

 

[HorseloverFat]

At my childhood home in Northern Illinois, one of our neighbors lived on a farm where one field had been cleared and planted with sugar maples in the late 1800's. In the fall people would come from all over the area to take photos in and around the trees. Just grass and huge sugar maples. I went there once for photos with one of my high school girlfriends

Another early memory I have of sugar maples is going up to a dairy farm in Northern Wisconsin to camp in the early spring when the sap was just starting to run. We would tap trees and boil down the sap, and in exchange for our free labor (helping the farmer) we each got to keep one gallon of fresh syrup.

Though I like a lot of north American native trees, the sugar maple is my favorite

Noth Wisco has SO many areas like this..

Are we taking like Oconto-Niagara area?

 

[Frozentreehugger]

At my childhood home in Northern Illinois, one of our neighbors lived on a farm where one field had been cleared and planted with sugar maples in the late 1800's. In the fall people would come from all over the area to take photos in and around the trees. Just grass and huge sugar maples. I went there once for photos with one of my high school girlfriends

Another early memory I have of sugar maples is going up to a dairy farm in Northern Wisconsin to camp in the early spring when the sap was just starting to run. We would tap trees and boil down the sap, and in exchange for our free labor (helping the farmer) we each got to keep one gallon of fresh syrup.

Though I like a lot of north American native trees, the sugar maple is my favorite

Seen a pic from pioneer times of a single maple log on a horse drawn. Sleigh 6 horses . If the man beside the log is 5.5 to 6 feet tall than the tree is 11 to 12 feet across. The trunk imagine the size of that tree

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Might as well add this here was in other . Tree is sugar maple collected this spring roadside rock crack tree was chainsawed back I estimate 3 to 4 years ago by Ontario hydro ( power company ) normal maintenance so no interference with power lines pic is 1 week old starting to leaf out a little unsure if I got enough roots All u could get I. Pocket but several main roots went deep into rock crack

 

[Paradox]

Its my understanding that both sugar and silver maple do not make good bonsai subjects because they have large leaves and long internodes that dont reduce well

 

[HorseloverFat]

Its my understanding that both sugar and silver maple do not make good bonsai subjects because they have large leaves and long internodes that dont reduce well

Well yes... Any base inquiries on the subject will yield such results...We've all heard it.

Everyone always says it... but never tried very long..

So we're hear to discuss...

Those same folks spray nay-says all over rubrums and platenoides, too. And I've personally gained much reduction in both these species with very little effort.

The leaves on "Non-worked Palmatums" are pretty big too... and it takes more than just a season or two to get satisfying reduction goals... and people will work with them.. because they "know" they will reduce down..

But how would one "know" that?... having worked with palmatums for a while, yes?

Maybe there are facets about North American trees and North American Climates that we do not understand.. because they are never pursued longer than "a season or two"...

Maybe North American Plants and Climates need to be assessed and considered differently than if one were in Japan.

I grow predominantly Rubrum, Freemani and platenoides when it comes to endemic Acers..

I have, PERSONALLY, found Sugar Maples to respond slow, if at all, to Bonsai Techniques...

But who am I to say someone won't blow my mind with an awesome specimen.. and detail a schedule of procedural interference, previously untried.

These "Specie Study" threads are for this very purpose...

Chances are.. MOST people who will post here... have already heard "No.. not "x" tree for bonsai!" MANY times...

We are HERE to PROVE.... "Why"... or "Why Not?"

We Could use your help. (for relevant information-gathering's sake, we ARE here to learn and discuss, after all)

Have you ever tried to grow these? (your sugar or silver maples)

What techniques did you use that DIDN'T work.. and made you abandon them? (your sugar or silver maples)

Given we've also been studying the implications and sunlight variances of "understory trees" in Northern America... what substrate and daylight schedule did you attempt them at?... (your sugar or silver maples)

Did you attempt to work with them more than 2 seasons? (your sugar or silver maples)

Did you purchase, collect, or grow from seed? (your sugar or silver maples)

Germination natural?..or indoors? ((if seed) for your sugar or silver maples)

...

Personally (in this sugar/silver maple vein), I worked with a sugar for ALMOST two years.. before it was rabbit-eaten.

I did not, personally get the results I WANTED... but "almost two years" could NEVER be enough time to tell.



(I also have a couple Silver stock from last year that I'm excited to test the parameters of)

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Its my understanding that both sugar and silver maple do not make good bonsai subjects because they have large leaves and long internodes that dont reduce well

Yep

 

[Paradox]

Well yes... Any base inquiries on the subject will yield such results...We've all heard it.

Everyone always says it... but never tried very long..

So we're hear to discuss...

Those same folks spray nay-says all over rubrums and platenoides, too. And I've personally gained much reduction in both these species with very little effort.

The leaves on "Non-worked Palmatums" are pretty big too... and it takes more than just a season or two to get satisfying reduction goals... and people will work with them.. because they "know" they will reduce down..

But how would one "know" that?... having worked with palmatums for a while, yes?

Maybe there are facets about North American trees and North American Climates that we do not understand.. because they are never pursued longer than "a season or two"...

Maybe North American Plants and Climates need to be assessed and considered differently than if one were in Japan.

I grow predominantly Rubrum, Freemani and platenoides when it comes to endemic Acers..

I have, PERSONALLY, found Sugar Maples to respond slow, if at all, to Bonsai Techniques...

But who am I to say someone won't blow my mind with an awesome specimen.. and detail a schedule of procedural interference, previously untried.

These "Specie Study" threads are for this very purpose...

Chances are.. MOST people who will post here... have already heard "No.. not "x" tree for bonsai!" MANY times...

We are HERE to PROVE.... "Why"... or "Why Not?"

We Could use your help. (for relevant information-gathering's sake, we ARE here to learn and discuss, after all)

Have you ever tried to grow these? (your sugar or silver maples)

What techniques did you use that DIDN'T work.. and made you abandon them? (your sugar or silver maples)

Given we've also been studying the implications and sunlight variances of "understory trees" in Northern America... what substrate and daylight schedule did you attempt them at?... (your sugar or silver maples)

Did you attempt to work with them more than 2 seasons? (your sugar or silver maples)

Did you purchase, collect, or grow from seed? (your sugar or silver maples)

Germination natural?..or indoors? ((if seed) for your sugar or silver maples)

...

Personally (in this sugar/silver maple vein), I worked with a sugar for ALMOST two years.. before it was rabbit-eaten.

I did not, personally get the results I WANTED... but "almost two years" could NEVER be enough time to tell.



(I also have a couple Silver stock from last year that I'm excited to test the parameters of)

I already probably too many trees than I have time for. I dont have the bench space, coldframe space and time to monkey around with species that have been proven to not be amenable for bonsai. Its just not a valuable thing for me to do. If others want and enjoy playing around with them, I wish them the best in trying to prove what the others have found to be incorrect.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

It’s not a maple but I’ve been looking for some time . It flowers before the leaves on bare wood . The bark is almost pure black. It grows in nature as a isolated small slender tree . It’s the most cold hardy of its species . White flowers can have a tinge of pink the petioles of the flowers are pink . It has to be found away from other trees that it can hybridized with or it will not have these features . I live in its native range but it’s rare . It’s exactly in its preferred location along a river at edge of forest beside a road . I will need to see the leaves to be positive . But I believe. The search is over I can not collect it it’s on NCC property ( national Capital commission) federal owned property only around Canada’s capital mist is park land. But I can collect seeds and allowed to take cuttings. Prunus Nigra. Canada plum.

 

[HorseloverFat]

I already probably too many trees than I have time for. I dont have the bench space, coldframe space and time to monkey around with species that have been proven to not be amenable for bonsai. Its just not a valuable thing for me to do. If others want and enjoy playing around with them, I wish them the best in trying to prove what the others have found to be incorrect.

But who... WHAT others?

How long did THEY try?

Where is THEIR documentation.

You keep saying "proven"..

Everyone says "proven"..

But can't prove it...

Or never tried themselves.

I DID try, myself.. and I'm still here discussing.. Because i felt that the TIME I spent trying
wasn't adequate.. and that SAME amount of time would not have yielded good results from MOST trees.. even the ones with the Japanese "Seal of approval"

Seems to me you're still ATTEMPTING to throw jabs "on your way out"

...Of a Bonsai Study group forum..

With the TITLE "Species Study"..

Someone strolls in.. "Nah!... I don't think you should really study this specie at all?"...

Was that really WORTH saying... Or attempting to spread negativity SECONDHAND.., With no relevant experience, good or bad to share.

EVERYONE i've spoken to says ALMOST the same thing, even OG growers in the bay area..

"Yeah Sugars, Reds, Silvers and Norways are all POOR for bonsai... I tried some for a year two.."

But never longer..

And I've PERSONALLY seem amazing things done with Rubrum AND platenoides..

So Maybe.. JUUUUST maybe..

"most" are wrong about the others..

It IS a possibility, yes?

And with no FIRST-HAND or WITNESSED experience to share (I'd imagine you have shared if you did...) YOU.. don't REALLY know either..

We all tend to repeat stuff we hear... even if that stuff wasn't SHOWN to us.. OR we didn't experience said "stuff" ourSELVES..

I was just curious if you had experience and insight to share.. or just another nay-sayer.. walking by and laughing.