Splitting Tree and Severe Bending (Part Deux)

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Thought I would share another tree I split last year and have begun work on. A kind of why do one... when you can do two or more type of thing? And besides... Its fun exploring what can be done with material.

So, to not go into tons of detail, and spend time repeating a lot of what was discussed in Part Ono... here is the link to the first tree I did in such a way...
http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/splitting-tree-and-severe-bending.18915/page-2#post-369372

As for the second... here is where I am at for the moment.
splitjuni2.jpg



The tree before the splits...
juniper fin2.jpg

And a link to how I got it to this stage... before splitting the trunk of course.
http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/choose-your-own-adeventure.19975/page-3


Now, obviously this tree has a long way to go... and of course might and probably will change further as it begins to develop. I know I still want to do some more work to the straight trunk on the left, and the trunk on the right will actually be wired and bent to where the curve is a tad bit more horizontal... for the moment I cannot do this due to the pot being in the way.

Also, of course with this one I split the entirety of the trunk, so it allows for better movement and placement, as well as a lot more options.
Thanks!
 

Adair M

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Sawgrass, I see these trees as "Proof of Concept" practice. That is, you're learning the technique and practicing on these trees so that you'll be able to do it on a better piece of materiel sometime in the future.

In that regard, it's excellent work! But looking at these trees as "bonsai", they just seem very contrived. I prefer to think they're practice for you.

Carry on...
 

M. Frary

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Sawgrass, I see these trees as "Proof of Concept" practice. That is, you're learning the technique and practicing on these trees so that you'll be able to do it on a better piece of materiel sometime in the future.

In that regard, it's excellent work! But looking at these trees as "bonsai", they just seem very contrived. I prefer to think they're practice for you.

Carry on...
They aren't that much different from those corkscrew junipers that people seem to like so well.
 
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Sawgrass, I see these trees as "Proof of Concept" practice. That is, you're learning the technique and practicing on these trees so that you'll be able to do it on a better piece of materiel sometime in the future.

In that regard, it's excellent work! But looking at these trees as "bonsai", they just seem very contrived. I prefer to think they're practice for you.

Carry on...
Quite the contrary Adair...
Here, I will let you borrow my imagination for a minute!

I do these because I am searching for how to best create what people say cannot be created... that is nature!
I believe it is in all actuality possible to do so... and with every one of these I do, I get closer and closer to making this a reality.

I am not working on practicing for future better material... I am creating the future better material.
Thanks!



11885176_1033804553310562_5692176916109001901_n.jpg




11887848_1033804576643893_6107631177158337174_n.jpg





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11952035_1033804599977224_2377706522569862302_n.jpg




20140524-76-junipers-XL.jpg
 

ysrgrathe

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I am a big fan of this twisted, abstract style and really appreciate you showing these techniques that can be used to replicate it.
 
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One of the things I have found interesting with the first one I did in the first thread, is that over time the live vein on the side not cut flat from cutting in half, actually reduces in thickness and the sides die off, forming a smaller "humped" vein, which will continue to grow.

What is nice is that this allows for the sides of the deadwood side to be taken away, to rid the split trunk of the flat appearance where it was sawn.

Also in the future, I would like to create uros, or smaller splits in areas of the dead wood and live veins going the opposite direction, to force new growth to expand width wise in certain areas, so as to not have such a uniform trunk appearance, and better replicate some of the features seen in the images above.
 

Adair M

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One of the things I have found interesting with the first one I did in the first thread, is that over time the live vein on the side not cut flat from cutting in half, actually reduces in thickness and the sides die off, forming a smaller "humped" vein, which will continue to grow.

What is nice is that this allows for the sides of the deadwood side to be taken away, to rid the split trunk of the flat appearance where it was sawn.

Also in the future, I would like to create uros, or smaller splits in areas of the dead wood and live veins going the opposite direction, to force new growth to expand width wise in certain areas, so as to not have such a uniform trunk appearance, and better replicate some of the features seen in the images above.
Well, that's the thing... Those gnarly trees got a lot of those sharp bends and twists when they were young, then grew the girth. Over decades and centuries. But they were twisted when they were young. You're taking thicker trunks, and trying to twist them.

The way they make those corkscrew junipers is to take younger branches, wire them into corkscrews and then grow them for several years until they've developed some wood. Then they Jin them. They don't take heavy material and then corkscrew it.

Maybe you can make it work.
 
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Well, that's the thing... Those gnarly trees got a lot of those sharp bends and twists when they were young, then grew the girth. Over decades and centuries. But they were twisted when they were young. You're taking thicker trunks, and trying to twist them.

The way they make those corkscrew junipers is to take younger branches, wire them into corkscrews and then grow them for several years until they've developed some wood. Then they Jin them. They don't take heavy material and then corkscrew it.

Maybe you can make it work.
Adair, I have done corkscrew junipers as well... However, if you look at the pics I posted of the various trees above... only a about 4 of the 10 pictures posted have corkscrews... so then what? Too funny!

twist1.jpg

twist2.jpg


twist3.jpg
 

Adair M

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Sorry, that's not the kind of corkscrew I was referring to. I was talking about the ones that Jim Gremel makes and sells. I'll have to search for an image. I don't own one.
 
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Sorry, that's not the kind of corkscrew I was referring to. I was talking about the ones that Jim Gremel makes and sells. I'll have to search for an image. I don't own one.
Yes, I understand the kind you are referring too, I merely showed these cause there are many different ways of dealing with and accomplishing the effects we see in nature and I have managed to accomplish this same type of feature by merely wrapping wire tight and allowing the wire to bite in. Does this mean that Jims are correct and mine are incorrect? I don't think it does... if it allows one to accomplish a twisted trunk feature, what difference does it make on how one gets there?

Not trying to argue here... just disagree. The whole point of the thread was to perhaps show another way to accomplish what we are seeing in nature, and how perhaps we can go about replicating this... You have posted that what I am doing is somehow incorrect... that in your opinion it feels contrived, and that what I am doing is is good for practice towards good material, but that's about it.

I am not quite sure how this is correct and I understand that there is this kind of wall thing that is put up in Bonsai, that people cannot take crappy material and make into anything of any worth...

However, this simply is untrue. I mean, where do people think all of the awesome material that they get and buy to work on from Bonsai Nurseries comes from? I mean there is a whole industry in places like Japan and here in the states that do nothing but take typical nursery stock you can buy at a Big Box store, they do work on it add bends, twists, etc. Then later sell it to folks who miraculously, I guess just think the tree grew this way?

So, why can't people do the very same thing? I mean if Bonsai Nurseries do this, then I see no problem with ordinary folk doing this... yet time and time again, we tell them they can't... you told them they can't wirh your Bonsai Steps thread that you recently posted. Why? Again, not trying to be mean here. .. just asking the question...

If you look at the pictures of the example trees found in nature that I have posted you will see that over time often due to stress of perhaps freezing and thawing, falling rock damage, as well as just high winds, you will see that often it is quite common for tree's trunks to split and separate away from each other. Pic 7 shows this as well do the first couple of photos. This is what I am doing...my trees resemble this. Are they there yet? No, I am sure it will take many more years of development to bring it to this level... but what is wrong with getting the ball rolling?

I do have to question though, if the thoughts of the pieces I have done feeling "contrived", have more to do with the pieces being done by me? I mean, I am not trying to say my work is great, or that I am so awesome here... but, I do have to question that if I showed up with the very same material pulled down from the mountain, that looked identical, how many people would question it's contrived look?

Perhaps it is just the "Narcissist" in me... for this seems to be a common thought around here when I post anything... but, just because everyone's vision of how stuff should be done, does not match mine... how is it wrong? I mean... my work is not the greatest, I will admit that, but I am not quite sure how anyone can actually look at my body of work, and the things I post on a daily basis and even begin to question that what I am doing, does not work. Especially, when it seems clearly evident that it does. I understand that I didn't go to Japan to study, or study under a master, so I have no credit ability. Just sitting in my own back yard here, teaching my how to do things... But, what is funny is I am doing the very same things, and they are working.

I mean look what I have done here... I have split two trees in half, ( I actually have more, just haven't posted them yet),they have lived, I have done severe bending, which only masters from Japan in videos seem to be capable of doing, they have lived. Have done notching and bending, they have lived, have stripped whole live veins off of trees, leaving nothing but a live vein of a quarter of an inch, and they have lived... have done substances carving on trees, have done pretty impressive displays, my tree is going as well to Nationals, it to will be shown with the USA ' S great trees. All this stuff are things people think only the best in Bonsai can do... only things "Masters" can do... yet, I have done them. I mean, I would not even begin to try and compare myself to Boon, but even you would have to admit that Boon would probably be quite impressed with what i have nanaged to accomplish and with no formal training. Have a little faith my friend.
 

Adair M

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Sawgrass,

My comments about using material from the big box stores in my Phases thread is related to the fact they usually sell fast growing plants that have large leaves, or long internodes or poor grafts that can't be fixed or hidden.

Of course, that's not always the case. In fact someone recently posted a wonderful JBP they found for $30, that has excellent potential!

Hey, if you like your trees, don't let me stop you. I guess we can agree they're just not my taste. Heck, I like Sumo trees. Not everyone does.

To be honest, I'm not really a fan of the Gremel corkscrew (spiral Jin) trees, either. Many are, and are willing to spend big bucks on them!

Maybe when you get famous, people will spend the big bucks for yours! That would be cool!
 
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Sawgrass,

My comments about using material from the big box stores in my Phases thread is related to the fact they usually sell fast growing plants that have large leaves, or long internodes or poor grafts that can't be fixed or hidden.

Of course, that's not always the case. In fact someone recently posted a wonderful JBP they found for $30, that has excellent potential!

Hey, if you like your trees, don't let me stop you. I guess we can agree they're just not my taste. Heck, I like Sumo trees. Not everyone does.

To be honest, I'm not really a fan of the Gremel corkscrew (spiral Jin) trees, either. Many are, and are willing to spend big bucks on them!

Maybe when you get famous, people will spend the big bucks for yours! That would be cool!
It's ok, I have just decided I am not going to argue with people anymore. And will not be posting anymore threads.
Thanks!
 

wireme

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It's ok, I have just decided I am not going to argue with people anymore. And will not be posting anymore threads.
Thanks!

Hope you change your mind.

Anyways here's a natural trunk aged and weathered to the point of being all split. Sorry, old phone pic don't have a better one but I'll go back there one day, got a couple trees to pick up. image.jpgAnd a link, no doubt you've seen it but these Taiwanese field grown junipers always come to mind when people talk of replicating old yamadori. Damn good job of it they do! 20-40 years of strategic and skilled field growing first though..

http://bonsaijournal.com/taiwan-juniper.php
 

Wilson

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Dude I know I am not alone when I say I enjoy immensely reading and learning from your posts. Don't be discouraged by differences of opinion, your trees are awesome! Love seeing how you are able to push the trees, and design living art. I know you are a great painter, and I grew up loving " the group of seven" amazing Canadian painters, your trees evoke similar images. Keep up the creative force, and share the progress, it is enjoyed by many I am sure!
 

justBonsai

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I was just about to post the same comment. I enjoy some of the content you post, but there is no need to get so riled over every disagreement. There will always be nay sayers or people with differing opinions--take it for what its worth. You are after all posting on a public forum which in itself implies peer review. Perhaps you can't accept the basis for which other people are judging you? It doesn't really matter. Ultimately its up to you for what you want to think.

As far as an argument I don't really see one here. Should Adair not have posted what he thought? Or perhaps given you more credit for your perspective? I didn't find anything particularly disrespectful.

I really respect the work you do and that you create them based off your own interpretations and ideas. I've seen your paintings and pots as well and they look great. But if you're going to get upset every time someone disagrees or puts down your work maybe you really should stop posting.
 

Adair M

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I meant no disrespect. Stacey is a very talented artist.

Shoot... I remember he himself made a post a couple years ago before he was going to enter the Joshua Roth Young Artists contests about how he was going to buy a bunch of cheap junipers and twist them up as practice for the contests!

I figured the "trunk splitting" was the next step of practicing a new technique!
 
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My decision has little to do with getting upset, artistic temperament, or disagreeing with people.
I just don't understand why I am taking the time to photograph, post stuff and create threads, only to have to then spend more time trying to defend what it is, I am doing from people who either don't like it or don't get it? Not my problem.
Thanks!
 
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