Spring Collecting

[August44]

SPRING COLLECTING

I want to start this thread early enough so that I can be ready for spring collecting in the mountains very close to where I live. My home town is at 3435 ft and I collected last spring at 5000-7500 ft well before there was any growth or budding showing on the collected trees. Most of the time I collected in leftover winter snow. I collected lodge pole pines, ponderosa pines, a few 5 needle pines, spruces, larches and a couple of Rocky Mt maples. Specimens were collected in the forest and under canopies of mature trees, so they did not have a lot of direct sunlight during the days. Also, they were probably covered with snow all winter. My success rate was not great in my opinion even though I tried very hard to do what I thought was right in the collection process. The blue spruce and Rocky Mt maple, Ponderosa pine and larch success was very good…it was the lodge pole and the 5 needle pines that I had trouble with. I collected specimens from 6” to 30” and most of the bigger ones did not make it through the summer. Some of the smaller ones didn’t either. The Lodgepole pines are very numerous and easily collected. Their root system consists of a tap root with some sturdy offshoots from that with very few small feeder roots. Sometimes I trimmed about 10-20% off the tap root. The native soil was mostly sandy/rocky so it was hard to retain soil around the roots when collecting. I would dig specimens, put them in native soil in pots up on the mountain, bring them home, remove them from the native soil mixture and quickly plant them in a grow pot using a mixture of a good grade of potting soil (no fertilizer), added a big % of the perlite/pumice, and a little diatomaceous earth for water retention. Most were bare rooted in the transfer process, but never allowed to dry out at all. I then kept them in an area that got early morning sun only and they were watered as needed in the well-drained soil. No fertilizer until I saw growth starting. Nothing died immediately, but through the summer a number of them had needles browning and then I would see that dry, green/gray ghost look to the needles before they went South. I did NOT note on tags which trees I had clipped the tap roots on or at what elevation they were dug, but I will this year. After thinking about my loses last spring and summer, I wonder if digging at 5000-7500 ft and bringing them down to 3400 ft could cause a problem. Maybe I should dig them, plant them in a grow pot on the mt in native soil, put the whole thing back in the ground and leave them there for a month or two and then bring them down. Maybe my mixture in the grow pots needs improvement. Maybe digging anything over 14-18” is not a good idea. Maybe there is a special solution that I should be watering with that would help the survival rate. Maybe I should leave them in the native soil for a year or two.

Another thing I wonder about is digging in the fall verses digging in the spring. I have planted a lot of shrubs and trees in the fall and always had good luck with them if they are kept moist. It just seems to me that collecting in the fall after some freezes, and the sap is down, and the trees are in a dormant stage would be a lot easier on the collected specimens verses collecting in the spring, changing elevations, changing soils, disturbing the root systems etc, etc, and then expecting the trees to survive the summer weather (think warm/hot summers).

I have attached some pictures of some specimens collected last spring.

Any advice, knowledge or help would be appreciated. Thanks, Peter

 

[atlarsenal]

I only read as far as “bare rooting”. You can not bare root conifers! Not with any consistent survival rate. You might get lucky a time or two. You should leave most of the native soil and change out to bonsai soil over a couple of years time.

 

[Sn0W]

Sounds like the environment you are collecting from isn't suitable for collecting. The specimens you're collecting also sound like they are unsuitable for collection due to not having a decent set of roots. You've bare rooted them once by digging them up, potted them, taken them home and then bare rooted them again to plant them. That's a lot of stress for species that shouldn't be bare rooted at all.

I think you need to do a lot more research before you try again. Google, Youtube and this forum contain all of the information you need. You just have to look for it.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

I think digging them up and then putting back in the ground on the mountain still exposed to the elements is a bad idea. At least when you bring them home you have more control over how much sun/wind/and water they’re exposed to. I’m not an expert on collecting pine, but if you’re collecting pines where you have to cut a substantial tap root then you probably shouldn’t be collecting those. The upside to collecting in the mountains is that you can find trees growing in pockets of rock where the ideal tree would just pop right out easily without having to cut any tap root. Pines are particularly susceptible to root pruning and losing the native soil around the root ball. If you can find pines to collect where you don’t have to disturb the root ball much at all then that is your ideal situation.

 

[BrianBay9]

I've had a lot of success collecting lodgepole and ponderosa - overall about 80% survival. The trick is selecting the right trees. Trees growing in sand/gravel/loose soil typically have their feeder roots so far away from the trunks that collecting is impractical. I focused specifically on trees growing on granite ridges - growing in pockets in the stone. Most are lodged into cracks so tight it would take dynamite to get them out. But a small percent are essentially in a natural granite pot, growing tenuously in that pocket. Those are the trees to take. Clip one or two support roots and the entire, compact root mass comes out. I've never spent more than 15 min getting those types of trees out.

You transfer them from the natural "pot" to your pot or box and they hardly notice they've moved. Still, use proper after care and don't work them until the show strong growth.

Sorry, just read Mike's response - what he said!

 

[rockm]

I got to the part about using potting soil and insuring "they never dried out" Potting soil is a VERY VERY VERY bad choice for collected anything. It retains water --because it was designed for use with mostly indoor plants. Things dry out inside, so the soil is designed to hang on to water.

Combining that soil with uncertain watering skills --which you don't have yet will lead to a lot of dead collected trees. Conifers require well drained soil. When watered porous soil draws in oxygen, which helps generate new roots. Additionally some collectors will mist the foliage of newly collected trees to help with the recently chopped root mass.

A lot of dead trees is the result of collecting your own trees when you haven't gotten basic bonsai care down adequately...

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

A tip from another member is to collect the ones growing deeper inside the woods. When the forest floor is littered with mulch and leaves, pines and larches have the tendency to kill off their taproot and make feeder roots only.
I found this to be true, and picking those increased the survival rate from 70 to 100%. At least with spruce, larch and pinus nigra and sylvestris.

I provide double aftercare, against all professional advice but based on experience. I provide "half strength" carbohydrates and organic nutrients straight away in the soil. Based on the 35000 cuttings I annually processed i n the past, which were all placed on full strength nutrients + carbohydrates, I figured it wouldn't do harm.
Ryan Neil advises against it, I disagree with him. Plants need building blocks to build, and fuel to do so. As do the micro organisms that have supported them in the wild. If all of their energy has to be diverted to restoration, it can take longer if they're not provided with the means to do restoration.
I believe this is part of the reason why they restore so fast. Some of my collected scots pines (spring 2018) have double flushed in the summer of 2018.
I see this as confirmation of a good practice.

 

[bonsaichile]

You've gotten some solid advice here. I collect in the Rocky Mountains too (assuming you do, of course). I would only add not to forget to get a permit if you are collecting in public lands. In Colorado at least, it is $10 per tree and the permit is good for a year.

 

[August44]

Thanks for the input. I need to clarify some things, and then ask some questions...I live in NE Oregon and collect in the Elkhorn Mts right outside of town. I think they are about 10,000 ft at the highest location. I am 74 years old and very fit and healthy. I do get a permit from the Forest Service and it is $20.00 for 20 trees per year. When I say "potting soil" mix, I mean a high grade potting soil with no fertilizer, not your run of the mill stuff. I mix that with 75% pumice and some diatomaceous earth for water retention. If that is "Very, Very, Very bad", please suggest a substitute. I don't mind constructive criticism along the way, but would like solutions to something I am doing wrong. I read that pine bark is a good substitute to be added to the pumice verses the potting soil. Would that be pine bark fines such as this....https://www.amazon.com/Bonsai-Jack-...XG13VJ&psc=1&refRID=3HTSZGNH0N0W54XG13VJ...or the pine bark mulch?

I learned above that the long tap roots with very few feeder roots on the pines are because of the soil type and the lack of water, and that collecting trees with this type of root system is not going to be very successful. I can collect the species, but need to do it in a different location to get a better root system. Sounds very reasonable and I will work on that for sure. I also now understand the facts about not bare rooting conifers and taking as much of a root ball as possible when collecting. Again that means finding a different location out of the sandy, rocky soil, but doable I'm sure. I did look at the cliff pictured below and thought about going up and trying to "pop" one out, but these little trees have big tap roots that are 3-5 feet long going down into cracks etc, so gave up on that. Plus it looks like a scary dig to me.

I did not have the loss problems with the spruce or the larch, and they were bare rooted also, but will follow the above procedure when collecting them this year. Both of these species had a good root system by the way. The twisted trunked spruce are very nice.

I read from you above that it is best to pot the newly dug pines in their native soil and then convert to bonsai soil over the next 1-3 years. Maybe someone could explain how that is done. I am visualizing removing them from their pots every year while dormant in early spring, carefully removing some of the native soil, adding bonsai mix and re-potting. Let me know if that is correct please.

I also want to make sure that I should be collecting these trees BEFORE any growth/budding is showing, and that once you see any growth, do not collect the tree. I would just move to a higher elevation last spring to solve the problem.

Wires_Guy_wires...could you explain this to me please?..."I provide double aftercare, against all professional advice but based on experience. I provide "half strength" carbohydrates and organic nutrients straight away in the soil. Based on the 35000 cuttings I annually processed i n the past, which were all placed on full strength nutrients + carbohydrates, I figured it wouldn't do harm."

I am considering going up this spring with burlap squares for collecting. Dig the tree, set it and the root ball /native soil on the burlap, wrapping the burlap around the ball and tying in up at the top. I could then set a few of these in a 5 gallon bucket for transport back to the truck. Your thoughts would be appreciated with this method.

Thanks for the help, Peter

 

[bonsaichile]

$20 for 20 trees is cheap! Nice
Regarding substrate, I use pure pumice with my collected conifers. It stimulates good root growth and allows for better oxygenation than any kind of potting soil, no matter its grade.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Please do not see my method as an absolute truth. We're dealing with different plants from different environments. I want to make that clear before describing my method leads to a discussion. I do what I do, because it works for me.
Seeing those mountains and coming from a flat country, I kind of wish I could help you collect! I could use the exercise ;-)

I'll take you through the steps I take when collecting:
- See the tree, check its surroundings. Is it worth collecting? Is it better to leave it another year? This year for instance, pine sawflies have done a wonderful job, together with prolonged heat. Coming year will be a collectors goldmine; the apical buds are all dead, most upper parts of trees have died due to drought. The pines around here have sprouted hundred of buds down the trunk.
- Give it a tug. Does it move? Then it means the taproot is most likely absent. I then tug a little more to see in which directions the roots are spreading. Most trees in my favorite spots can be lifted a few inches before the roots give resistance. You could literally look through underneath the rootbase.
- Check how far the root base reaches; sometimes this is going on for a few feet before the feeder roots appear. This makes the tree less suitable for a bonsai pot. Sometimes, it's closer to the trunk.
- If everything is to my wishes, I start digging from the outer layers inwards. Collecting large patches of roots and everything attached to them. The complete chunks of dirt and mulch. Sometimes I pack these in towels or plastic bags with some rope, to keep them together.
- After taking them home, I prepare a bonsai mix (usually a mixture or almost equal parts of pine bark, perlite, clay litter and/or akadama).
- Then I fill the ground layer of a pot with my mixture. The roots and everything attached to those roots go on top of that part. Then the open spaces are filled with more bonsai mix. Everything gets a light shake and a watering to settle in the soil. If needed, I secure the tree with guy wires or with a four-leafed clover shape made from rubber coated wire around the trunk.
- The water is allowed to drain, then I shake a little more so that every empty space is filled. Some people use chopsticks to fill those gaps, I believe it damages the roots when you start poking them with a piece of wood, and scrubbing soil against them while that's happening. The shake seems to suffice in my cases.
- After two days, the soil is starting to go dry. Some literature states that scots pines like 30 grams/L of sucrose in 'in vitro' culture (cuttings). I have table sugar, which is not the same thing but close enough. Corn syrup would be better even, but a tablespoon or two per gallon is the maximum for that stuff. I prepare a 15grams/L solution and add some auxins (IBA-K, 300mg/L to help root growth signalling) and give that to them through watering. Sometimes it takes a week to empty the watering can, so they get a few waterings like that until the can is empty. Then I throw some cow dung pellets on the soil (not in bags, not like an established tree where it's very concentrated but instead in this case evenly distributed), just a dash like you would sprinkle salt & pepper on a steak. Every watering, some of those nutrients wash into the soil, gradually increasing strength over the course of 4-8 weeks.
- Then it's waiting time. Depending on how I judge the health of the tree and its ability to keep itself alive, I place them in the sun or half-shade. Every month I re-assess the situation.

Usually after growth has started, roots run through the pot in a matter of weeks. This is my time to increase feeding to regular levels. When everything is healthy at least. If it isn't, I find out why and respond to that first.

The trees have gotten their first sugars from external sources, so there's no need to drain their own winter provisions. I believe this increases survival. They have all the means to start building right away. In an empty soil, they would have to collect and generate those things themselves. This takes weeks. I don't want them to take weeks, because being weak for weeks means that there are openings for bad things to happen. Feeding right away also helps the fungi and bacteria (rhizobiome) to spread out faster and more abundant compared to.. well.. compared to when the tree has to feed them to do so (and having to feed someone else means they get less of the good stuff themselves). In a sense, I'm providing both the tree as well as the soil microbes with sugars and building blocks. I see this as feeding an ecosystem, trying to restore what I've just destroyed.
Lots of people disagree with me, and they are not wrong. It is very easy to kill sensitive roots with high nutrient levels as well as with high sugar levels. When I see the fuzzy fungi popping up, I see a healthy life support for my tree. Some people shower their plants with antibiotics to prevent that. My fungi make their own antibiotics and keep out the bad guys for me, as long as they're taken care of as well. It's a more uncommon philosophy but it's going to be big one day in the future. Agriculture is trying to switch to using that system too.

Fast forward one year. It's spring again. Given that the tree is healthy, we can start thinking about repotting. If it's not healthy, look into why it isn't. If it's not a soil issue, don't touch the soil. If it is, try a bigger pot with better soil first. Sometimes it just needs some more air or drainage. Sometimes it's wise to take a risk, because the tree wouldn't have lasted long otherwise. That's up to you.

Now, since a large portion of the soil consists out of original forest soil, we would want to get some of it out. That's where the Half-bare-root repot comes in. 1/4th or 1/8th bare roots are fine too. Lift the tree from the container and decide which half you're going to fix. Pick that half, and work your way from down to up, removing the old soil and leaving the bare roots unharmed as much as possible. A tiny rake (or a bent fork) and a lot of water can help a lot. Work your way from the outside towards the center of the trunk. Remember to keep one half intact with soil and all.
Now you have a chunk of soil filled with roots on one side, and an empty bundle of dangling roots on the other side. Put the tree back in the container (it might be wise to provide a bottom layer of bonsai soil again) and put the roots in a good position (pointing outwards in all 180 degrees, since it's just half of the rootball). Then fill it up with bonsai soil again.
Repeat 2-8 times and eventually the soil will be 100% bonsai soil.
We half-bare-root to keep the microbiome intact; it will cross-contaminate/colonize the freshly added bonsai soil throughout the year. Pine bark is a good source of carbohydrates and a good stable place to hide for that microbiome. At the point of full colonization, the other half can be bare rooted. Now the previously done half can provide the new half with microbes. I think it's remarkable that we think about that biome when repotting, but not always upon collecting.

That's my procedure and reasoning in a nutshell. People do it differently with similar great results. Their method is as good as mine or better. This is my own variation to it, and I'm happy with the results. For large parts, most of these methods all have a sane and similar reason behind it that comes down to this: keep the living system intact, and help it re-establish in a new environment.

Here's one of my spring 2018 specimens at the end of summer.

 

[August44]

Thank a lot for the detailed description of how you do things Wires. Interesting for sure and I took notes. The picture of the bottom of your tree was interesting also. I see what looks like new white roots growing out of the bottom. What is that medium that looks like little fibers that the roots are growing through if I can ask? Was that a confer or deciduous tree?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

It's a tall and ugly scots pine that I'm trying to tame and crush into a shape. So it's a conifer. I took it because a maintenance crew was going to bull doze it, not because it's the best material.
This pine is growing in akadama, the expensive Japanese bonsai clay people love and hate. I too love it because almost everything grows on it, but I dislike it as well because of the price and the fact that it breaks down so easily. It lasts around a year in our fluctuating winters (freeze and thaw cycles on a daily basis, breaking the stuff up).

 

[August44]

I did forget to mention that you are certainly welcome to collect with me anytime Wires. I will probably start in mid April-May. We would have a good time. If you're walking or riding your bike, better start now!

 

[August44]

I did find a picture of a collected Lodgepole pine from last year. The tree was about 24-26" tall from the ground. From the ground down to the tip of the longest root was about 14-16". From what I have learned here, I would guess that the roots are to long, and no feeder roots there so I should never have considered it. Your opinions are appreciated.

 

[bonsaidave]

If there is good material out there I would suggest not collecting it. I think you should collect worthless looking trees and get to where you can keep then alive. No point in you digging nice trees if you can't keep them alive.

Once you have the collection skills figured out move on to decent material.

 

[August44]

Dave, thanks for the encouragement! I'll bet my success ratio was as good as most of the folks on their first year trying, including yours. Do you have anything positive to say that might help me or just the slap talk? Peter

 

[rockm]

Dave, thanks for the encouragement! I'll bet my success ratio was as good as most of the folks on their first year trying, including yours. Do you have anything positive to say that might help me or just the slap talk? Peter

Your bet would be wrong. The people who start cold without any experience collecting typically have low survival tree survival rates for a long time, as they repeat their mistakes without knowing what they are. They also tend to take constructive criticism as personal attacks. No one is "smack talking" anyone here. You've been given decent advice. BTW, the advice on collecting junk initially is sound--why kill decent trees with potential? --and you will be killing quite a few trees if you keep doing what you're doing.

Experience actually doing bonsai is a big key to unlocking successful tree collection. Also understanding collection is HIGHLY locally specific. Someone in the Netherlands may have success with HIS techniques, but translated to alpine conifers growing in Oregon is a huge stretch. I would listen to people from the Western U.S. on their methods and take them up on any offer of collecting trips. That's gold.

What you're doing in trying to collect trees and learn bonsai is like trying to learn how to ride a unicycle and juggle at the same time. The two things, collecting and bonsai, are not the same. To collect successfully entails understanding some of the basics of bonsai care. After-care, not initial collection, is THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF COLLECTING. Without knowing how to do that, all your trees are pretty much doomed.

You asked me about alternatives to potting soil (And BTW, ANY potting soil regardless of "quality" is a huge no-no for most any collected tree with the possible exception of Bald Cypress). The "soils" typically used for collected conifers are extremely porous--you would probably call it gravel when you see it. It's porous to shed water, which trees need, but collected trees with their truncated root systems, can't readily absorb. That means standing water, constantly soggy soil will rot cut roots and inhibit the growth of new roots. It is the primary cause of failure, that and not understanding how to collect a rootball with feeder roots... Porous soil not only drains quickly (and requires a bit of attention to avoid drying out, or a misting system), tehy also pull in oxygen to the roots as they drain. That is a crucial part of root regeneration. Typical post-collection soil for conifers usually involves pumice. Asking around out there will yield the best results.

If I were you, I would take others up on their offers to go collecting with them. That is how you're going to learn what's possible and what's worth the effort, as well as what you need. I would also ask around to see if someone would sell you an actual collected tree that's already established in a container. You can probably get something decent for less than $100. If not, look at places like this.

 

[bonsaidave]

Do you have anything positive to say that might help me or just the slap talk? Peter

Heh. That was pretty positive for a pessimist. I encouraged you to keep trying just not with trees you want to keep. You have to get that keeping things alive part down before you can worry about anything else. I do wish you luck.

 

[August44]

Dave/Rockm. Thanks for the comeback. I have been collecting mainly blue spruce, lodge pole pines, and a few Ponderosa and 5 needle pines. There are about 5 billion around here of the first three and a fair # of the five needle trees also. I doubt very much if I have collected anything that anyone on here would consider a good specimen tree. My success was 65% or more so I don't think that was to bad for the first time. From what has been said here, I think my biggest problems are the tap root system on some of these trees, and not collecting the trees with a root ball of native dirt. I was under the assumption that when the trees are dormant, you could do about anything with them and get away with it. I also need to pay more attention to the area, the soil type that I dig in, realizing that the better and deeper the soil, the better the roots will be. I will certainly test tug on selected trees in the future and make sure there is not a tap root system as I pictured above.

I am trying to glean information from this forum so that I can do a better job of collecting and after care. I have no intention of having a low survival rate for very long. I have already learned a bunch from this thread. Sometimes, I ask questions, but do not get specific answers so that I can learn something...ie: I pictured the root system of a lodgepole above and asked for comments and got no input from anybody. I have asked about soil mixture for these conifers and still don't understand what I should be using except that it should be about 75% pumice or the likes, and then 25% of what else? I am thinking pine bark fines would work for the other 25% plus a little diatomaceous earth, but I don't know that and would like input from you on that. I will never mention the word potting soil again, promise!

There is nobody in my area that does bonsai to my knowledge, so it is tough to get hands on experience from anyone. I would certainly be glad to collect with someone or have someone go with me. Peter