Spring root pruning with repot?

[Mike Corazzi]

I think that next spring I am going to root prune (the ones that I do) farther out than usual. Leave more root length than I usually do when pruning them.
I doubt seriously if I'll ever look to "show" trees in itty bitty pots so why try for root development closer to the trunk?

My....theory.... is that with more "functioning" roots instead of "developing" ones, I'll get better... GROWTH !!

Yes?
No?

 

[leatherback]

Challenge is.. The most functional part of the root are the growing tips. THe rest of the structure is a lot less effective at uptake. As such, creating a dense rootball with many small roots is better than a few long roots. Training the roots to have loads of branches near the trunk is beneficial for the tree!

 

[Mike Corazzi]

Challenge is.. The most functional part of the root are the growing tips. THe rest of the structure is a lot less effective at uptake. As such, creating a dense rootball with many small roots is better than a few long roots. Training the roots to have loads of branches near the trunk is beneficial for the tree!

That's why I would still prune roots. Just leave a bit more behind the clip. IOW, more working roots.

If ground growing is such a great path to thicker trunks and accelerated growth, wouldn't it follow that letting roots run farther (not FAR-FAR) would be the same thing?
I've never read of putting a tree in the ground and then uprooting it every spring to trim the roots close.

 

[MrWunderful]

I've never read of putting a tree in the ground and then uprooting it every spring to trim the roots close.

Lots of ground growers do that.

correction: a lot of people that field grow bonsai that care about nebari appearance, do that.

Many species are vigorous enough to get most of the benefits from trunk size increase in ground, being able to be root pruned every year.

 

[Shibui]

I certainly root prune field grown trident maples every winter and still get good growth rates. Regular root pruning forms masses of fine feeder roots all round the trunks.
It could even be that root pruning closer to the trunk will end up giving you many more fine feeders than your proposed pruning them longer.
Th other problem is actually fitting the tree into a bonsai pot at the end of development phase. I find that we almost always underestimate the size of the roots ten when it comes time to fit into a bonsai pot the roots need to be cut enough to fit which usually involves cutting the thicker roots closer to the trunk and removing almost all feeder roots or making progressive root reduction over several years. I've certainly found it is much better long term to prune harder early.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

Learned something.

 

[sorce]

My....theory.... is that with more "functioning" roots instead of "developing" ones, I'll get better... GROWTH !!

This is what Walter does.

That better growth also comes in the form of roots closer to the trunk, which you can cut back to later. I think this is safer, much less risky.
Not all your eggs in one basket, if you will.

Cut hard in to make space of you have to, but if you don't.....

If considering all your threads, I think this is a brilliant idea for you and that oven!

Sorce

 

[Mike Corazzi]

This is what Walter does.

That better growth also comes in the form of roots closer to the trunk, which you can cut back to later. I think this is safer, much less risky.
Not all your eggs in one basket, if you will.

Cut hard in to make space of you have to, but if you don't.....

If considering all your threads, I think this is a brilliant idea for you and that oven!

Sorce

I'm glad you posted that.
BECAUSE.............
as I was on the pot this AM ....................(TMI ?)
I was gonna post a question of the "butch cut bunch" ...exactly.... that reference to Walter Pall.
I.....think.... I read that he believes that ...conifers.... should almost never be repotted.



I do know that I caught some flak some time ago on a question about a JBP where I was told not to ....style... a tree until it got some bulk to it.
But, the thing is that the pine was exactly how I bought it. Other than bending a few EXISTING wires, I wasn't doing anything else but it was not growing and not developing buds. AT ALL.

So what does this have to do with anything?

Welllll.................... I took that scrawny undeveloped pine and last year stuck it in a BIG training pot and.....where it was NOT budding..... NOW, there are buds on every limb. And I ain't
a-gonna root prune it this spring.

Oh, yes. Still glad you posted that.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

If you are after rapid growth, don't prune roots, don't even repot. In general in USA we repot our trees far too often.

If you want to slow down the development of the tree, then do repot. The harder you root prune the slower the recovery will be. Prune hard enough, you can even kill the tree.

Slow growth gives shorter internodes. Short internodes are beneficial to bonsai design. Short internodes also means slower to increase diameter of trunk.

You need to decide what stage of growth the tree in front of you is in, and then decide whether you need more rapid growth or slower growth. Then you decide IF you want to repot, and how much you will prune when you repot. It is all up to your design goals.

 

[Shibui]

If you are after rapid growth, don't prune roots, don't even repot. In general in USA we repot our trees far too often.

If you want to slow down the development of the tree, then do repot. The harder you root prune the slower the recovery will be. Prune hard enough, you can even kill the tree.

This is not my experience.
I noticed many years ago that trees that were not repotted began to grow slower and slower. The year following repot I get great growth and that gradually declines until the next repot. I know many people who are so resistant to this idea that the just can't accept the evidence in front of them. A friend who has been growing bonsai for 20 years admitted to me that he had started to notice but thought it was a crazy notion and did not believe it until I assured him I had the same experience.
The reason for NOT repotting too often is to slow growth. The consequent shorter internodes give much better ramification.

I do agree that stage of growth is relevant. Root prune and repot regularly to get rapid growth but reduce frequency when trying to build ramification.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

This is not my experience.
I noticed many years ago that trees that were not repotted began to grow slower and slower. The year following repot I get great growth and that gradually declines until the next repot. I know many people who are so resistant to this idea that the just can't accept the evidence in front of them. A friend who has been growing bonsai for 20 years admitted to me that he had started to notice but thought it was a crazy notion and did not believe it until I assured him I had the same experience.
The reason for NOT repotting too often is to slow growth. The consequent shorter internodes give much better ramification.

I do agree that stage of growth is relevant. Root prune and repot regularly to get rapid growth but reduce frequency when trying to build ramification.

Is ramification not growth?

As @sorce mentioned, I have a REAL heat wave problem here. It can start VERY early in spring. I worry about hoping for new root generation in an oven.

 

[leatherback]

I worry about hoping for new root generation in an oven.

Sounds like fall repotting might be for you?

 

[sorce]

Is ramification not growth?

As @sorce mentioned, I have a REAL heat wave problem here. It can start VERY early in spring. I worry about hoping for new root generation in an oven.

In the same way that I have trouble with wet nasty springs, it sounds like you have a heat problem. Or rather, possibility, which means inconsistency, which makes it difficult, because one year something works, and one year or doesn't.

Growth, IMO, is growth.
Ramification is growth, but more easily accomplished with slow growth at the stage you wish to keep tiny leaves. Ramification being more of a "stage" in the context.

When you're sure the heat has passed, Repot the next full moon. I'll bet that will make all your problems go away.

The heat isn't the problem.
Repotting before it is the problem.

Sorce

 

[Eric Group]

I think that next spring I am going to root prune (the ones that I do) farther out than usual. Leave more root length than I usually do when pruning them.
I doubt seriously if I'll ever look to "show" trees in itty bitty pots so why try for root development closer to the trunk?

My....theory.... is that with more "functioning" roots instead of "developing" ones, I'll get better... GROWTH !!

Yes?
No?

If growth is the goal... put them in the ground. Do not root prune. Obviously you can/should be vigilant and reduce roots and sacrifice branches in areas where you see the nebari/ growth getting over weighted but broadly speaking, just let it go until you have the trunk you want.
True root pruning is for the refinement stage after you have a trunk to work with. Root pruning, of any amount, and growing in a pot of virtually any size will limit growth.

 

[Shibui]

Is ramification not growth?

Not in the sense that most of us use the term growth. Growth usually refers to increase in length or thickness. Slower growth (lengthening) means more nodes per inch of branch but does not usually give rapid increase in either length or thickening. It does allow more side shoots which equates to ramification but that takes time, often years, to create the extra side branches we desire.

Try it out. Get some similar trees of the same species. Root prune some trees hard, some medium and leave some root bound then objectively observe the resulting growth over the following summer. Or, over a longer term, watch what happens in the years following repot V years where the trees are not root pruned.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

I don't have time for that. That would be interesting but I am "medium" pruning in the spring.

 

[Mike Corazzi]