Spruce Looking Sparse

Mike Hennigan

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Like @Djtommy said, spruce can be repot in Fall.

Yes but I don’t consider mid or late August to be fall. Any time temperatures are easily over 90 degrees and your doing root work on a spruce is a bad idea. You’re impeding their ability to take up water when they need a lot of it. If you’re going to do a fall repot, wait til beginning of October or so.

Or better yet just do it in the spring when you can do the most drastic rootwork and still be confident the tree will not just survive, but thrive. If this tree dies, consider that proof that mid August rootwork on spruce is a bad idea.
 

0soyoung

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do it in the spring when you can do the most drastic rootwork and still be confident the tree will not just survive, but thrive. If this tree dies, consider that proof that mid August rootwork on spruce is a bad idea.
Bah!
Any time temperatures are easily over 90 degrees and your doing root work on a spruce is a bad idea.
Root temperatures over 90F is a bad idea, period.
 

Mike Hennigan

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Root temperatures over 90F is a bad idea, period.

Lol, not root temperatures, just the general weather temps. Just saying doing rootwork will inhibit the trees ability to pull water to cool itself etc, so it’s just not a good idea to do that in mid August.

It’s amazing how resistant we can be to observing simple cause and effect. “I repotted my tree in mid August, why is it dying?!”. lol. He’ll figure it out.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@Johnathan
Spruce in general do not tolerate "hot roots", our friend @0soyoung is right. So providing shade for the pot & roots while giving foliage sun is tricky in the southwest, but necessary. I have laid cardboard over the surface of my pots during hot dry spells. Lift cardboard to water. Pain in the keister, but one of many short term solutions. For my area, excess heat is seldom more than 2 weeks worth.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Lol, not root temperatures, just the general weather temps. Just saying doing rootwork will inhibit the trees ability to pull water to cool itself etc, so it’s just not a good idea to do that in mid August.

It’s amazing how resistant we can be to observing simple cause and effect. “I repotted my tree in mid August, why is it dying?!”. lol. He’ll figure it out.


The OP is in Oklahoma, you are in Ithaca NY. I agree that an August repot of a spruce would be less than ideal in Oklahoma. However, with my climate, being near Lake Michigan, I have found August 15 thru Sept 15 to be ideal for repotting spruce, Jack pines, mugo, and many other trees. NY should have fairly similar climate to mine, I don't think your problem with repotting spruce is just because you tried it in August. Something else is going on. I'm trying to help you with this comment, you might look at other factors.
 

Mike Hennigan

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The OP is in Oklahoma, you are in Ithaca NY. I agree that an August repot of a spruce would be less than ideal in Oklahoma. However, with my climate, being near Lake Michigan, I have found August 15 thru Sept 15 to be ideal for repotting spruce, Jack pines, mugo, and many other trees. NY should have fairly similar climate to mine, I don't think your problem with repotting spruce is just because you tried it in August. Something else is going on. I'm trying to help you with this comment, you might look at other factors.

Ok. Seems unnecessary at best, but maybe I’m missing something. What are the benefits to repotting spruce at the end of summer that outweigh the benefits of repotting in the spring? Just if you have too many repots in the spring to do? What about substantial root reduction? I don’t own a greenhouse, I can’t protect my trees in the winter the way that some people can. No way am I going to do major root work going into my upstate NY winter. Would surely hurt the cold hardiness of the tree. I guess I just don’t see the point of repotting at that time, but I must be missing something.
 

Mike Hennigan

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Trying to grasp the difference between doing something because you can do it and doing something because it is better for the health of the tree. Like, just because Walter Pall can repot maples in leaf, doesn’t make me want to try it, because I’m not Walter Pall and I don’t need to do that. Lol. I dunno man!
 

0soyoung

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It’s amazing how resistant we can be to observing simple cause and effect. “I repotted my tree in mid August, why is it dying?!”. lol. He’ll figure it out.
The main issue with repotting (when foliage is present) is relative humidity of the air, not the temperature per se. You really ought to try it, and try it with more than one tree. I tried to interest BNutter's in this several years ago.
The only semblance of participation in this 'experiment' with Aug/Sep repotting that I've seen here is Walter Pall repotting some of his maple bonsai reported/shown in some of his recent BNut/blog posts.
as examples.
 

Mike Hennigan

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The main issue with repotting (when foliage is present) is relative humidity of the air, not the temperature per se. You really ought to try it, and try it with more than one tree. I tried to interest BNutter's in this several years ago.
The only semblance of participation in this 'experiment' with Aug/Sep repotting that I've seen here is Walter Pall repotting some of his maple bonsai reported/shown in some of his recent BNut/blog posts.
as examples.

Thanks Man, I will check it out. Obviously I’m no expert, just of the opinion that spring is the safer bet. But maybe I’m wrong.
 

0soyoung

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What are the benefits to repotting spruce at the end of summer that outweigh the benefits of repotting in the spring?
  • Auxin drives root growth.
  • Newly hardened foliage is the most productive
  • Auxin production and photosynthetic efficiency declines with leaf age
Most all conifers have newly hardened foliage by shortly after the summer solstice (21 Jun in the nh).
Most all conifers and waxy leafed deciduous (angiosperms like most oaks, quince, azaleas) can effectively limit water lost to transpiration.
 

Mike Hennigan

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lol
The main issue with repotting (when foliage is present) is relative humidity of the air, not the temperature per se. You really ought to try it, and try it with more than one tree. I tried to interest BNutter's in this several years ago.
The only semblance of participation in this 'experiment' with Aug/Sep repotting that I've seen here is Walter Pall repotting some of his maple bonsai reported/shown in some of his recent BNut/blog posts.
as examples.

Those experiments are all with seedlings. Means very little to me. I up pot seedlings any time in the summer all the time. Do the same experiment with some spruce yamadori. LOL. No please don’t.

And yes I’m familiar with Walters repotting of the Maples. He’s not doing major root pruning, like setting root structures. Still impressive as hell though!
 

River's Edge

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Okay, so I'm wanting to do some work on a blue spruce, but it's not looking to hot.

The needles have dropped off leaving some really bare spots on the branches. I was wondering how far back can I cut the branches or should I consider these to be lost branches?

I intend to ground grow this tree, so I hadn't cut if anywhere really.
Your first line says it all. The tree is not healthy enough to work on and you have observed that. So the rest of the question was what branches are suitable to keep. At this point keep everything that is still alive , that maximizes the chance of survival and focus's on bringing the tree back to health. I would suggest letting it rest and recover for at least another full growing season without any work.
Then you can assess what is possible at that point.
You are wise to note that work contemplated is dependant on the health of the tree, not just the season or the prevailing wisdom of others.
 

Mike Hennigan

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But yea I’ll read the experiment threads closer when I have more time. Maybe something he experiment. With myself next season. Thanks for the insight @0soyoung
 

Djtommy

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lol

Those experiments are all with seedlings. Means very little to me. I up pot seedlings any time in the summer all the time. Do the same experiment with some spruce yamadori. LOL. No please don’t.

And yes I’m familiar with Walters repotting of the Maples. He’s not doing major root pruning, like setting root structures. Still impressive as hell though!

My friend in Hokkaido has a shop dealing with yamadori spruce and other trees for well over 40 years. He says repoting in August is a great time. He even seems to have a preference to this time over spring.
One reason for this is that it will be warm weather but not hot for quite a while and roots need the warmth to grow. Spring there can be quite cold.

Mind that August there is not the same as fa Tokyo where i would never repot in august due to the heat. September or October definitely better.
 

Vance Wood

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I don’t think moisture retention in your soil is an issue if you’re using 100% DE. Should be holding plenty of moisture between watering. Consider top dressing with sphagnum though for even drying.
Sphagnum is an organic, or am I wrong. If you are using 100% DE??? That too may be a problem.
 

TomB

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lol

Those experiments are all with seedlings. Means very little to me. I up pot seedlings any time in the summer all the time. Do the same experiment with some spruce yamadori. LOL. No please don’t.

And yes I’m familiar with Walters repotting of the Maples. He’s not doing major root pruning, like setting root structures. Still impressive as hell though!

Read his comments on repotting spruces in late August too though (in his European climate). https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/european-spruce-88.35186/#post-589610
Some of the other material in that thread may be pertinent to this situation (frequency of repotting, time to establish etc).
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Ok. Seems unnecessary at best, but maybe I’m missing something. What are the benefits to repotting spruce at the end of summer that outweigh the benefits of repotting in the spring? Just if you have too many repots in the spring to do? What about substantial root reduction? I don’t own a greenhouse, I can’t protect my trees in the winter the way that some people can. No way am I going to do major root work going into my upstate NY winter. Would surely hurt the cold hardiness of the tree. I guess I just don’t see the point of repotting at that time, but I must be missing something.

Trial and Error is how I came to August repotting. The initial trials and errors were with JBP, and the unique quirks of my climate. JBP need at least a week or two of temperatures above 80 F to really wake up in spring. Living in the ''Lake Effect" zone of Lake Michigan, there are years I don't repeated temperatures above 80 F until almost July. JBP repotted after last frost but before bud growth and extension showed in May and June often died on me. That is when I began repotting JBP in August, and my high mortality rate dropped from nearly 75% to less than 10%. This is where I really began to embrace late season repotting. Now when I post I usually don't comment on JBP, because I have not had much success with them, even though I have always had a few over the last 35 years. I consider others more expert than I and just quietly do my thing with my JBP.

But expanding on the success with JBP, tried with other trees, and generally across the board for conifers and ginkgo, I have had very good success with August repotting. I also have better success with Chaenomeles and Diospyros repotting in September. (flowering quince & persimmon). Both you will find Japanese references stating ''autumn'' repotting is best.

Yes, in many cases spring and late summer repotting are nearly equal in success. Larch is the only conifer I have found to do better for me with spring repotting.

Lastly - you are partially correct, I have many demands on my time in spring. Being the weekday site manager for the property my cousin's & I refer to as our blueberry farm, I have very little free time in spring. Blueberry harvest comes to an abrupt halt for us about July 25, the week after July 25 we throw fertilizer around, then take August off to recover. So yes, I have time in August I don't have in May, June or July. The only crop on the 76 acre property is 3 acres of blueberries, the rest is open fields or woodlot. A more accurate term than ''Farm'' would be hunting camp. But the blueberries are my project, and the 3 acres actually produced enough that they covered the mortgage, taxes and insurance for the whole 76 acres. They did not cover any equipment, fertilizer, bug spray or labor. But this is ''a start''.

So the demands on my time forced me into widening the scope of species I repot in August-September. I have done enough spring versus August-September that for some species like Mugo, Jack pine, persimmon, flowering quince, and most other conifers that I do recommend August-Sept. Because of my unique climate, I don't usually tell someone when to repot JBP, unless I think they too are in a long cool spring micro climate.
 

Mike Hennigan

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Thanks for input all, will take it to heart. Now eating 90% of my words... ? That said, even repots done at the right time can still go wrong. Just something to pay attention to, could still be a factor.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Thanks for input all, will take it to heart. Now eating 90% of my words... ? That said, even repots done at the right time can still go wrong. Just something to pay attention to, could still be a factor.

Not a problem, I just wanted to be clear I'm speaking from my personal experience, not "internet knowledge". I do recognize that ''individual results may vary''. Each one of us has our own subtly unique microclimates, and our own horticultural practices that interact with out various microclimates. So I do believe everyone's results with a technique will be slightly different.

And do notice, I don't claim to be particularly great at horticulture or bonsai. At my best 90% survival is all I get when repotting trees. I really do loose one in 10 of my JBP every time I repot. I still don't know why. Most other trees I have better success than JBP. No matter the species every now and then, something goes wrong. I still have not got all the bugs worked out of my system, and I've been doing this for over 35 years. Although I've only been serious about bonsai since 2003. (started taking classes in 2003, first teacher was 3 years, 4 sessions a year with Ted Matson, he helped lay a great foundation) I won't spend big money on a tree until 99.5 % of my trees survive repotting and other treatments. So I have a ways to go. But 90% is better than 25% survival. So I feel i am slowly getting the hang of this bonsai ''thing''.
 

Johnathan

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Sorry for getting everyone so riled up lol

I repotted this tree in July of 2017 with no problems. I also did repots on junipers and a mugo in July of 2017.

I got to them late this year which is why it was in August.

While the tree doesnt look as vibrant as it has in the past, I just figured it was changed with the fall cooler weather we had coming in.

My reasons for cutting back was to try and stub a few branches where there may be potential whorls forming.

Also, I believe I read something saying once the spruce drops all its needles from a branch you can't "push" the foliage back closer to the trunk. So I was wanting to try and trim it up so all of the branches weren't bare next year.

I will keep a closer eye on it. First freeze of the year is tonight o_O
 
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