Starting a New Boxwood Literati - Join in With Your Input on this Quasi-Collaborative Thread!

grouper52

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As do many bonsai folks, I find myself - in my mid-sixties - increasingly interested in the Literati style. The fascination with such bonsai is supposed to hit around this age, and especially in folks who are "Literati" sorts of people - the web is full of descriptions of who, exactly, these "sorts of people are," and you can decide for yourself, but I think I fit the bill.

That there are "Rules" for this sort of bonsai seems a bit counter-intuitive, since Literati folks are supposedly the sorts who are not interested in a lot of rules, or at least no longer so at their stage in life. These rules, if you aren't aware of them yet, are easy to find on line, and I'll leave that education for you to engage in if you need to.

My first real interest in bonsai - even before my association and friendship with Dan Robinson blossomed - was the Chinese Penjing style, which is a style that gave birth to, and highly valued, Literati. My most prized bonsai books were always those scarce tomes of Penjing trees, among which were gorgeous examples of the Literati style.

So, although a few past examples of the style can be found among the trees posted in my old album here on BNut from my Puget Sound days, I thought it might be fun for myself and others to collaborate here on a tree in this style, seeing it from start to completion together. The thread may last many years until the tree is complete, or may die out quickly due to lack of interest, or my circumstances changing as I age.

Good traditional bonsai material - fabulously rampant in the Philippines lowlands - is almost impossible to find here in Baguio, but at a little cluster of nursery material stalls in a park in the center of town I have noticed a great many thin and gangly things I would never pay attention to except as Literati material. Among the many boxwood for sale most are worthless as potential bonsai material IMO, or are already ruined with annoyingly boring left-branch-right-branch-back-branch attempts at bonsai styling. But one stall had a number of trees that stood out due to tall, thin, untrained, sparsely foliated forms with qualities that made me think of Literati. I chose one that I thought had the most promise for that style, and it is pictured below. It cost $12.00, stands 36" tall, and sits in a 9x9" grow pot on top of a 8x8" tile: when our house here is finished, I will grow it for however long it takes in the ground, however, before transferring it back to a suitable bonsai pot. It starts off, BTW, although you cannot see them very well right now, with well-formed nebari.

My proposal, for all those who want to chime in or just follow along, is to post pictures of the tree from 4-8 different angles each time after a series of cuts/chops is decided and finished, revealing the next possible changes to be made further up or down the trunk. The final decision at each step of the way forward will be mine, but I think the potentially lively discussion generated will be both instructive and entertaining to all, and may certainly influence my decisions. This process could take years or not, depending on the need to let the growth apically develop more or less each time after a previous change.

Because the old Chinese masters of this art form did not use wrapped wire, I will use none, but instead rely mostly on simple Lingnan-style clip-and-grow techniques throughout the initial styling phases, augmented when needed by the use of guy wires (the Chinese would have used ropes/strings, but never wrapped wire) and perhaps wedges to move/place branches/trunks. Only at the very end of the long process might I revert to using wrapped wire for final small-branch/foliage placement, but only if the terminal foliage can't be done well in any other way.

Here's the first set of four views to show the base from all angels. Which view would you pick just from the view of the base alone? And would that decision change as you see the trunks ascend?

Literati-1.jpg

The nice movement two inches from the base puts this view high on my list, but see if you think so or not with the next two
mages of the base and lower trunks/branching:

iLiterati-Base-3.jpg Literati-base-2.jpg

Then, since the fundamental decision at this point is which of the two main trunks to keep, here are photos showing the branching involved up higher in those two options.

Trunk 2.jpg

Literati-2.jpg

I'm going to be in and out of town for the next week, with very possibly limited access to the internet some or much of the time. I certainly won't be making the first cut until I get back, so feel free to discuss it among yourselves if you like. If there's no interest, no problem either. :)
 

grouper52

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OK, so, not too much collaborative input so far, but then no one except me can actually see the tree in 3-D, and it's a complex structure at this point ... so, let me make the first few decisions and post what's left after that.

BoxLit2-1.jpg

I removed the lesser of the two main trunks, even though it came off lower, which could be a plus, it had less interesting movements going on up higher. I also took off all lower branches that were not going to be keepers, either because they just came off at the wrong places, came off at right angles, or were too small (I might keep smaller candidate branches up higher, but down low they would simply take too many years to grow toa fdecent height/size. I used a guy wire to pull the lowest remaining possible trunk away from the rest to give a better view here as well.

BoxLit2-2.jpg

Here's another view that gives a good looking base, and shows some of the promising movement in two of the remaining trunks, and suggests some future chops at the next stage.

BoxLit2-3.jpg

And this final view for today gives, I think, the best ideas for where to go next. It also shows on one of the two upper candidate trunks a great number of new buds (they look like nails sticking out along the trunk at this point) - these may present some interesting possibilities as well when they start to burst forth.

Input welcome, but not required. :)
 

bonsaichile

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As do many bonsai folks, I find myself - in my mid-sixties - increasingly interested in the Literati style. The fascination with such bonsai is supposed to hit around this age, and especially in folks who are "Literati" sorts of people - the web is full of descriptions of who, exactly, these "sorts of people are," and you can decide for yourself, but I think I fit the bill.

That there are "Rules" for this sort of bonsai seems a bit counter-intuitive, since Literati folks are supposedly the sorts who are not interested in a lot of rules, or at least no longer so at their stage in life. These rules, if you aren't aware of them yet, are easy to find on line, and I'll leave that education for you to engage in if you need to.

My first real interest in bonsai - even before my association and friendship with Dan Robinson blossomed - was the Chinese Penjing style, which is a style that gave birth to, and highly valued, Literati. My most prized bonsai books were always those scarce tomes of Penjing trees, among which were gorgeous examples of the Literati style.

So, although a few past examples of the style can be found among the trees posted in my old album here on BNut from my Puget Sound days, I thought it might be fun for myself and others to collaborate here on a tree in this style, seeing it from start to completion together. The thread may last many years until the tree is complete, or may die out quickly due to lack of interest, or my circumstances changing as I age.

Good traditional bonsai material - fabulously rampant in the Philippines lowlands - is almost impossible to find here in Baguio, but at a little cluster of nursery material stalls in a park in the center of town I have noticed a great many thin and gangly things I would never pay attention to except as Literati material. Among the many boxwood for sale most are worthless as potential bonsai material IMO, or are already ruined with annoyingly boring left-branch-right-branch-back-branch attempts at bonsai styling. But one stall had a number of trees that stood out due to tall, thin, untrained, sparsely foliated forms with qualities that made me think of Literati. I chose one that I thought had the most promise for that style, and it is pictured below. It cost $12.00, stands 36" tall, and sits in a 9x9" grow pot on top of a 8x8" tile: when our house here is finished, I will grow it for however long it takes in the ground, however, before transferring it back to a suitable bonsai pot. It starts off, BTW, although you cannot see them very well right now, with well-formed nebari.

My proposal, for all those who want to chime in or just follow along, is to post pictures of the tree from 4-8 different angles each time after a series of cuts/chops is decided and finished, revealing the next possible changes to be made further up or down the trunk. The final decision at each step of the way forward will be mine, but I think the potentially lively discussion generated will be both instructive and entertaining to all, and may certainly influence my decisions. This process could take years or not, depending on the need to let the growth apically develop more or less each time after a previous change.

Because the old Chinese masters of this art form did not use wrapped wire, I will use none, but instead rely mostly on simple Lingnan-style clip-and-grow techniques throughout the initial styling phases, augmented when needed by the use of guy wires (the Chinese would have used ropes/strings, but never wrapped wire) and perhaps wedges to move/place branches/trunks. Only at the very end of the long process might I revert to using wrapped wire for final small-branch/foliage placement, but only if the terminal foliage can't be done well in any other way.

Here's the first set of four views to show the base from all angels. Which view would you pick just from the view of the base alone? And would that decision change as you see the trunks ascend?

View attachment 198277

The nice movement two inches from the base puts this view high on my list, but see if you think so or not with the next two
mages of the base and lower trunks/branching:

iView attachment 198282View attachment 198283

Then, since the fundamental decision at this point is which of the two main trunks to keep, here are photos showing the branching involved up higher in those two options.

View attachment 198286

View attachment 198287

I'm going to be in and out of town for the next week, with very possibly limited access to the internet some or much of the time. I certainly won't be making the first cut until I get back, so feel free to discuss it among yourselves if you like. If there's no interest, no problem either. :)
I would pick the second pic as my front
 

grouper52

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I would pick the second pic as my front

Thanks. Yes, I agree: it shows the best view of the base.

The question at this point is which of the three remaining trunk candidates to keep: Right now, although it goes less high and will therefore take longer time to cxome to fruition (I'd like approximately a three foot tree if the base and trunk size fits asthetically with that over the next 3-5+ years), I'm thinking that lowest branch coming off the lesser of the two thickest/highest trunks - the one that sweeps off a bit to the left in the third picture - will be what I keep and work with going forward - but I'm not quite definite on that just yet.
 

TN_Jim

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With the disclaimer of having very little time in bonsai, I’ve been fascinated with literati. Ones that begin at the base up relatively straight, typically have a break in straightness at some point indicative to me, the point where the wheels fell off and life was challenged..it seems that this is really what you are choosing in this branch selection. That said, in order to demonstrate a tree facing more adversity throughout its life (not that this is nessesarily the desired goal of literati, or such life changing events can not occur at any stage of life), and also potentially allowing for more movement, I believe I would select the very lowest branch.
This is a fascinating thread. Thanks.
 

grouper52

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You're welcome, TN_Jim (Great screen-name, BTW: spent 4 years in Nashville, but didn't see that much of it due to the pressures of med school at Vanderbuilt ... :( .

Glad you like the thread, and the idea for the thread. Should be fun to see the tree evolve (or devolve?) as time goes on. I don't usually start trees this young, but I think it's a nice thing for me to demonstrate since many people do, and short of finding a really fortuitous "natural" Literati I don't know any other way to do it. If I'm alive and doing bonsai in ten or more years it might really be starting to look nice, but it should be a fun long-term project along the way as well no matter what.
 

grouper52

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Lowest branch for me. It appears the others do not have much taper.

Thanks for the input. I agree completely, and it might be a very good choice over time, but my tentative choice a bit higher should provide sufficient and perhaps smoother taper over the long haul as well, I believe, since I'm aiming for a 3+ foot tree eventually, years from now. We'll see, and I'll keep it in mind and study it further before the next chop. :)
 

TN_Jim

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You're welcome, TN_Jim (Great screen-name, BTW: spent 4 years in Nashville, but didn't see that much of it due to the pressures of med school at Vanderbuilt ... :( .

Glad you like the thread, and the idea for the thread. Should be fun to see the tree evolve (or devolve?) as time goes on. I don't usually start trees this young, but I think it's a nice thing for me to demonstrate since many people do, and short of finding a really fortuitous "natural" Literati I don't know any other way to do it. If I'm alive and doing bonsai in ten or more years it might really be starting to look nice, but it should be a fun long-term project along the way as well no matter what.

Thanks. Good things certain to transpire.
Also, my wife received her masters from Vanderbilt, go Commodores!
 

my nellie

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From the first moment I read this thread I was very much interested in participating.
Taking into account that I am completely uneducated about editing photos using relative pc software, I thought I was not in a position to post pictures of the tree edited in such a way that they could present my personal image/design of the tree.
However, because I have given some thought on the way the tree could possibly be styled, I started to making some interventions on the photos posted above using simply the "Paint" feature of Windows.
If You @grouper52 are interested in my view for the tree I could post these pictures I have made :)
Even though you have already made your basic decision about the way you will follow with the tree, I think that posting my trash there could be a kind of retribution for the time I spent on those completely rough and primitive sketches I made :)
And you could also evaluate my preferences and give me your suggestions/critique.
So, what do you say?
 
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grouper52

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I say, my nellie:

1. I doubt they are "trash".
2. I'd love to see them.
3. Others might also want to see them and might benefit from them.
4. I doubt the sketches are any more "rough and primitive" than the POS software you had to use.
5. Retribution/revenge/etc. are fine and time-honored human actions: as long as no one gets hurt too bad, I say "Go for it!"
6. I believe it was in Boswell's Life of Johnson that it was said, "The best revenge is living well," and you'll live more happily, I think, if you post them. :)
 

JudyB

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Literati are hard enough in person, and mostly not achievable in good form. At least I don't think I've seen (percentage wise of what is out there) very many good ones. To try and do one from a one dimensional photograph seems almost impossible to me. I also love the form and wish to someday make a good one. I wish you well with your interesting venture!
 

just.wing.it

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Good luck with you venture into boxwood literati....
I wish I could have given my $0.02 before today...
I would have cut the trunk you kept to give more movement and taper...
But I am sure this tree will come around...
Gives me ideas for nursery material I see sometimes too! Thanks!

Edit: and on second look, you do have subtle taper that is nice, it'll be a taller one than if you went my route....
So kudos to you buddy!
 

my nellie

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At first thank you for your kind words.
I say, my nellie:
... ... you'll live more happily, I think, if you post them. :)
So, I'm making myself happy :)
I edited your photos #2 and #5 from the first post. Then I tried to put them together and reconstitute the image of the tree as a whole.
I have come up with this image of the tree but I am not sure about the angles of each photo I used.
I hope you will get the idea.

copyLiterati-Grouper.jpg

I would have kept both trunks.
1) The one on the left as deadwood, after I have had wired some suitable branch (perhaps any of those in the red circle) giving it a downward direction, like the drawing.
I know it is hard if not impossible to change direction to boxwood with wire, but perhaps use of guy wires could do the job.
2) On the right trunk I would have wired those two branches at the very end of the apex to give them a pleasing movement.
And I would try to bend the tip of the branch (in the red circle) and give it a downward movement, like the drawing.
I tried to "cut/past" the circled green foliage to the tip of the drawing but I didn't succeed :oops:

BUT on a second thought (right now while typing) I would rather bend the circled branch on the left trunk to the right, so that it would harmoniously follow the right branch's movement :)
 

grouper52

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Literati are hard enough in person, and mostly not achievable in good form. At least I don't think I've seen (percentage wise of what is out there) very many good ones. To try and do one from a one dimensional photograph seems almost impossible to me. I also love the form and wish to someday make a good one. I wish you well with your interesting venture!

Well, Judy, after two mornings waking up at 3:30-4:00 AM, to conform to various forms of PI and wifely craziness to come down here to her home province (Bicol) and her family of origin for re-unions with all two thousand or so of her relatives, I find myself in the only even quasi-air-conditioned room amongst all their houses, in a home with "Good" internet servive that takes only five minutes or so per page to load, trying to respond to this thraed, and at the moment your post specifically. Wish me well. :)

Just before leaving Baguio two days ago, I discovered and unpacked three of my old treasured Penjing volumes which, if I recall correctly, had a sizable sampling of really great examples of the form that I can scan in and post to give folks - and myself - some inspiration and direction. Later on that.

The drive down here was also simply filled with great examples of potential or natural Literati trees in the ground or in containers in yards along the roadsides, which gave me great hope. We'll see ...
 

grouper52

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At first thank you for your kind words.So, I'm making myself happy :)
I edited your photos #2 and #5 from the first post. Then I tried to put them together and reconstitute the image of the tree as a whole.
I have come up with this image of the tree but I am not sure about the angles of each photo I used.
I hope you will get the idea.
[

Thanks, "my nellie" for posting that, and I do get the idea, and the idea is certainly not without merit.

But that's not what I'm trying to do with the image.

My idea is a single trunk, and no deadwood protrusions for most of the tree's extended height, which will be 3' or more eventually. I also want to create the tree's image without the use of wrapped wire to create those bends, since the Chinese did not use - back in the distant past when they initiated this style - nor even have available - any wire that would wrap like our modern wire does. I hope instead to simply use Lingnan-style "clip-and-grow" techniques to style the tree throughout, perhaps with the use of guy wires occassionally since the old Chinese might easily have done similar manuevers with rope or string in the oid days. The only possible exception to not using wrapped wire is in the ultimate styling of the Literati-style small quantum of terminal foliage at the apex - the only foliage the tree will have. Sorry if I wasn't too clear about those plans and the constraints I am putting upon myself.

After my next chop, whichever way I go with it, I will have a single trunk with slight taper only, and - at the top - the last thin branch I decide to keep, and the tree will be quite short compared to it's eventual height. It will then be allowed to grow out again for a sizable length of time, both to add girth to the trunk down below, and to generate new branching options up above (which I might encourage a bit by trimming off the groweing tip of that new leader to force back-budding). Then that process will be repeated until the tree reaches the desired image and height - hopefully!

Therefore, It's likely to be a multi-year project, depending on how quickly I can get it to grow and mature into the image and size I want, even though I have no idea at this point just exactly what that particular image and size is likely to be eventually! That's the project. :)
 

grouper52

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Sort of like this: and then on to the next extended phase of growth upwards before chopping somewhere along the new growth, and then repeat prn.

my-nelli-Literati.jpg


And if I don't like those results as I proceed, I can chop anywhere else lower down that I like, and let it hopefully then produce newer (and perhaps more interesting) back budding to work with further down on the trunk, and all the while it's getting thicker and probably more interesting down below as it ages.

Does that make sense?
 

my nellie

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... ...Just before leaving Baguio two days ago, I discovered and unpacked three of my old treasured Penjing volumes which, if I recall correctly, had a sizable sampling of really great examples of the form that I can scan in and post to give folks - and myself - some inspiration and direction. Later on that... ...
Yes, please!
I would be much obliged to be given the opportunity to look at and think about them.

Sort of like this:
... ... ... and let it hopefully then produce newer (and perhaps more interesting) back budding to work with further down on the trunk, and all the while it's getting thicker and probably more interesting down below as it ages.
Does that make sense?
Perfect sense.

... ... I also want to create the tree's image without the use of wrapped wire to create those bends, since the Chinese did not use - back in the distant past when they initiated this style - nor even have available - any wire that would wrap like our modern wire does. I hope instead to simply use Lingnan-style "clip-and-grow" techniques to style the tree throughout, perhaps with the use of guy wires occassionally since the old Chinese might easily have done similar manuevers with rope or string in the oid days. The only possible exception to not using wrapped wire is in the ultimate styling of the Literati-style small quantum of terminal foliage at the apex - the only foliage the tree will have. Sorry if I wasn't too clear about those plans and the constraints I am putting upon myself... ...
So in conclusion, can we say that you want to work with your tree following exclusively traditional methods?
@Anthony is working his trees mainly with clip and grow technique and he uses the wire very less.

... ...Therefore, It's likely to be a multi-year project, depending on how quickly I can get it to grow and mature into the image and size I want... ...
Obviously it is.
But I hope that it will respond to your care (fertilizer, placement, etc) with a good growth rate
 
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