Starting Japanese red pine from seed

Mame-Mo

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Howdy,

I just got some Japanese red pine seeds from Sheffield’s today that I would like to grow soon. Young japanese black pine seems to be easier abs easier to obtain so I figured I’d try something a little different. However, it’s predicted to be hitting triple digit temperatures here soon and I’m wondering if it’s too late to start the seedlings. Assuming it is (which at this point I do) would I be better off starting after summer, when it is still very temperate here prior to our cold season in January or should I just wait until spring?

My next question is regarding storage. The package says to store them in the refrigerator. This seems a little intense to me, but without having experience storing tree seeds I don’t know if that is necessary or if I should just keep them in a cool dark place until I’m ready to plant.

I am also curious about the differences between red and black pine as far as vigor and growth are concerned. From my reading, red pines are more prone to crack, and are more delicate in appearance, but I haven’t found information on their growth rates. I have black pines and one pine that is possibly a red or possibly a hybrid, but it was so stunted when I bought it that it is hard to compare their growth.

Lastly, I would like to grow these trees as possible root over rock, or exposed root shohin trees in the future. It is my understanding that the cutting method is used to produce radial roots, but I am not sure this is necessary or useful for my purposes. Any opinions or experience on that front would be appreciated.
 

Shibui

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Most seed can germinate any time through warmer months. If the adult trees can cope with hot weather so can seedlings but it will be up to you to make sure the soil does not dry. I have grown JBP seed late and had no problem with summer heat. Some shade to protect the soil from drying too quick will help.
I would sow pine seed sooner rather than later. Pine seedlings grow slowly so later start may not give time to get to a decent size before winter. Maybe in Austin later summer sowing will still be OK as even little seedlings are winter hardy.

Storing seed in the fridge is good practise. Cool temps slow aging and deterioration so seed stays viable for longer. Most seed can even cope with freezing. You may have heard of Millennium seed vault where thousands of species are stored frozen in case of global catastrophe.
Some species have inhibitors to stop germination until after winter so they don't germinate well until they have been stored cold for a few weeks (stratification) to trick them into thinking winter has been and gone. We usually wet the seeds before stratification but possibly dry cold will also help germination.
Cool, dark storage is a good alternative to keep seed viable.
Apart from stratification treatment for those seeds that need it cold storage is only really applicable if you want to keep seed viable for years.

Red pines seem to grow a little slower than black pine but not much. They are slower to thicken and even in nature don't seem to grow quite as thick but often taller. They do have that reputation for being more brittle. They also seem to be less hardy. I've had far more red pines die than JBP. Winter wet seems to be the biggest problem here.

Pines are slower to thicken roots so ROR takes longer but can be done if you have patience as well as some skill. I have both JBP and red pine as ROR. Both will be OK as exposed root style.
Seedling cutting method has gained much popularity but in my experience that's more because it is a different approach and cool to do rather than effectiveness. I still get just as good lateral root systems by root pruning early at seedling transplant. Neither approach will give 100% success.
For both ROR and exposed roots a good lateral root system is very desirable so better to do some root work rather than just letting them do their own thing.
 

Mame-Mo

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Most seed can germinate any time through warmer months. If the adult trees can cope with hot weather so can seedlings but it will be up to you to make sure the soil does not dry. I have grown JBP seed late and had no problem with summer heat. Some shade to protect the soil from drying too quick will help.
I would sow pine seed sooner rather than later. Pine seedlings grow slowly so later start may not give time to get to a decent size before winter. Maybe in Austin later summer sowing will still be OK as even little seedlings are winter hardy.

Storing seed in the fridge is good practise. Cool temps slow aging and deterioration so seed stays viable for longer. Most seed can even cope with freezing. You may have heard of Millennium seed vault where thousands of species are stored frozen in case of global catastrophe.
Some species have inhibitors to stop germination until after winter so they don't germinate well until they have been stored cold for a few weeks (stratification) to trick them into thinking winter has been and gone. We usually wet the seeds before stratification but possibly dry cold will also help germination.
Cool, dark storage is a good alternative to keep seed viable.
Apart from stratification treatment for those seeds that need it cold storage is only really applicable if you want to keep seed viable for years.

Red pines seem to grow a little slower than black pine but not much. They are slower to thicken and even in nature don't seem to grow quite as thick but often taller. They do have that reputation for being more brittle. They also seem to be less hardy. I've had far more red pines die than JBP. Winter wet seems to be the biggest problem here.

Pines are slower to thicken roots so ROR takes longer but can be done if you have patience as well as some skill. I have both JBP and red pine as ROR. Both will be OK as exposed root style.
Seedling cutting method has gained much popularity but in my experience that's more because it is a different approach and cool to do rather than effectiveness. I still get just as good lateral root systems by root pruning early at seedling transplant. Neither approach will give 100% success.
For both ROR and exposed roots a good lateral root system is very desirable so better to do some root work rather than just letting them do their own thing.
Perfect response thank you!
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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They also seem to be less hardy. I've had far more red pines die than JBP. Winter wet seems to be the biggest problem here
For me the exact opposite is true.
I found JRP to handle freezing and overwatering way better than JBP.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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I tried a batch of 50 JRP from seed once back around 2008. 2 made it more than 3 years, and I have 1 left. Mostly due to neglect but they are less forgiving than JBP for me. They do fine with cold, but seem to despise wet roots and humid summers.

They start growing a little earlier than JBP (by a couple weeks), and plod along slower than JBP. Right now, the JBP are catching up, at the stage where needles are emerging from sheathes to about 1” on candles. JRP candles are shorter, and they thicken about half as fast as JBP.

They tolerate candle-cutting, but do it earlier and watch water as they’re regrowing.

They are excellent trees and my favorite pine, but seem to have a narrow tolerance for care.

Here is a shot of mine from a couple years ago. I’m adding lots of movement to new branches in the spring, then letting them grow out again. It slows the work but hopefully the result will be an interesting trunk.
B8578FD4-F9DB-4EF5-A5AE-9B526CD13787.jpeg

Worth trying for sure, best of luck.
 

Shogun610

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I tried a batch of 50 JRP from seed once back around 2008. 2 made it more than 3 years, and I have 1 left. Mostly due to neglect but they are less forgiving than JBP for me. They do fine with cold, but seem to despise wet roots and humid summers.

They start growing a little earlier than JBP (by a couple weeks), and plod along slower than JBP. Right now, the JBP are catching up, at the stage where needles are emerging from sheathes to about 1” on candles. JRP candles are shorter, and they thicken about half as fast as JBP.

They tolerate candle-cutting, but do it earlier and watch water as they’re regrowing.

They are excellent trees and my favorite pine, but seem to have a narrow tolerance for care.

Here is a shot of mine from a couple years ago. I’m adding lots of movement to new branches in the spring, then letting them grow out again. It slows the work but hopefully the result will be an interesting trunk.
View attachment 434825

Worth trying for sure, best of luck.
What are the dimensions?
 
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