Stewartia pseudocamellia Japanese Stewartia or Stewartia monadelpha (Tall Stewartia)

[ml_work]

I am look at getting small JS year or two old and putting it in the ground for a few years. The both say make nice bonsai. Which is the best or most common used for bonsai?

Thanks

 

[Potawatomi13]

I am look at getting small JS year or two old and putting it in the ground for a few years. The both say make nice bonsai. Which is the best or most common used for bonsai?

Thanks

Unless planning on larger tree would suggest one with smallest flowers which should be monodelpha. Personally got one of these last fall off bargain shelf($8) but plan on having in yard instead of pot.

 

[ml_work]

From what I read the monodelpha has the smaller flowers. I had one picked out and it was in stock (online) went back to get it and now it is our of stock and may not be back. So then I found the pseudocamellia which is in stock. It list the flowers as the same size as the monodelpha but I read otherwise on another listing and you confirm what I read. I will continue to look for the monndelpha, but I want to get it in the next week to put in the ground now.
Thanks

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I think the pseudocamellia is larger overall than the monadelpha. I bought a couple small seedling monadelpha from Bill V in 2011, planted them in the ground for 5 years, and they're 7' tall now, with 1" trunks. Leaves are nice; smooth, fresh green, and small, at about 1.5". Pseudocamellia leaves remind me of our dogwood leaves in size and texture. I'm really not sure of a difference beyond that.

 

[JudyB]

I have a psueudocamellia, could not find monadelpha. I wanted the monadelpha as they have better fall color and some have better bark colorations. Someday maybe I'll find one, but am happy with the one I have.

 

[ml_work]

Judy, thanks to you and Brian for your reply. I may have found a 2 year old (small) monadelpha, if it does not come through I think I will continue to look. This is just my thought, Judy has one in bonsai pot. Brian said his are in the ground 7' tall. If I now BVF they are not in his yard as trees or shrub, they are in the "grow bed". So 5 years to get a 1" trunk and I am looking for 1.5 to 2 inch trunk.... so if I can get one in the ground this week and it lives it should be ready about the time I start drawing SS.
Thanks

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

You are correct. Mine came from Bill in 4" pots or smaller. They went straight in the grow bed for 5 years. Last year, I dug them and worked the roots pretty hard for the first time. Then they went into Anderson flats. They're still in Andersons now, on the ground, and definitely escaping. In a couple more years, I'll do a chop.

 

[Dav4]

Pseudocamellia is also more suited to colder climates and would likely languish in AL- it's the only reason I don't have one planted in my yard here in GA. Go with the monadelpha.

 

[ml_work]

Thanks Dav, I ordered one last night (monadelpha), 2 year old 4 in pot.
Brian, the second picture, is it cut at the bottom and grafting on top of the bottom cut? Both tree appear to be pretty straight from bottom up. I would have thought there would have been more or some taper in 5 years.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Brian, the second picture, is it cut at the bottom and grafting on top of the bottom cut? Both tree appear to be pretty straight from bottom up. I would have thought there would have been more or some taper in 5 years.

No, the cuts were to remove a root that wrapped around the trunk and started to girdle it. Hopefully a few more years will heal the cuts and resolve the crease.

Yes, they are arrow-straight, and without much taper so far. Remember, taper comes from trunk chops. Neither of these trees have been chopped yet because the trunks are so slow to thicken. I want them to be about 3/4 of the finished diameter before I chop it. The second section will develop in a shorter period of time, but won't do nearly as much to thicken the first section below it.

 

[Dav4]

All the monadelpha pre bonsai and finished trees I've seen tend to be taller, more feminine trees with less emphasis on fat trunks.

 

[quietobserver]

All the monadelpha pre bonsai and finished trees I've seen tend to be taller, more feminine trees with less emphasis on fat trunks.

http://www.greenthumbbonsai.com/Stewartia.html

^ maybe look someplace new.

 

[ml_work]

quietobserver, that is the site I saw the stewartia and got me interested. Those are out of my price range so I thought I would try one from the ground up.
Brian, thanks for your reply, that is helpful on both questions.

 

[Paulpash]

You are correct. Mine came from Bill in 4" pots or smaller. They went straight in the grow bed for 5 years. Last year, I dug them and worked the roots pretty hard for the first time. Then they went into Anderson flats. They're still in Andersons now, on the ground, and definitely escaping. In a couple more years, I'll do a chop.
View attachment 98086 View attachment 98087

Brian I am ground growing a Stewartia, starting it off in my beds this year so if you could answer a few questions about their cultivation it'd help a lot.

What position do they do best in, eg full sun or shade.? A 'hot' day in Yorkshire is in the eighties. We don't have too many of them a year.

Our lows tend to be more frequent & severe, although this winter was probably the mildest on record. Can I ask you what the lowest temperature is these have endured in the 5 years you've had them?

Did you try to get a sacrifice down low through an early prune or have you just let it grow?

How long would you guess it'd take you to grow a trunk you'd be happy with to develop as a bonsai? Is a 7 or 8 year timescale a reasonable plan?

Have you ever attempted to propagate it? If so what methods work best?

Thanks in advance.

 

[coh]

From what I've seen, monadelpha has finer twigs, smaller leaves and flowers than pseudocamellia. It therefore is used a lot for forest/group plantings, but can also make a nice larger specimen. In contrast, pseudocamellia probably wouldn't work so well for forests because of its more coarse growth.

Pseudocamellia is ground hardy here and we have a couple of beautiful specimens in the yard. The tree has it all as a specimen...beautiful bark and flowers and great fall color. I've tried layering off branches but haven't succeeded for some reason. Monadelpha is supposedly not ground hardy around here. I've acquired some young seedlings to grow out in pots for use in a group planting, maybe will sacrifice one or two and plant them in the yard. Maybe we'll have some mild winters.

Around here (US zone 5b/6a), the hardy stewartias take full sun without a problem.

Chris

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Brian I am ground growing a Stewartia, starting it off in my beds this year so if you could answer a few questions about their cultivation it'd help a lot.
Sure, but my experience is limited to these two, which have been basically in the ground for 5 years and dug up in 2015.

What position do they do best in, eg full sun or shade.? A 'hot' day in Yorkshire is in the eighties. We don't have too many of them a year.
They have been in full sun in my zone 7B climate.

Our lows tend to be more frequent & severe, although this winter was probably the mildest on record. Can I ask you what the lowest temperature is these have endured in the 5 years you've had them?
They've been down to 8f. Normal winters average low in the 30s, and will freeze solid in pots several nights a winter.

Did you try to get a sacrifice down low through an early prune or have you just let it grow?
One has a good branch I plan to use as the second trunk section, chopping everything above. The other doesn't, and I'm not eager to chop to no buds. Based on how they grow, I suspect at worst, it will stool up from the base.

How long would you guess it'd take you to grow a trunk you'd be happy with to develop as a bonsai? Is a 7 or 8 year timescale a reasonable plan?
I'm surprised at how slow they have been. About half the rate of a J. Maple. I want a 3" trunk, and I'm halfway there...with last year's root work making any trunk thickening negligible for a season or two.

Have you ever attempted to propagate it? If so what methods work best?
I have not yet tried, but I am tempted to layer and try cuttings. I am told it will be futile. Wonder what @garywood can add to this.

Thanks in advance.
Welcome, good luck.

 

[quietobserver]

Good reading:

http://bonsaiunearthed.com/fujikawa-kouka-en/stewartia-monadelpha/

 

[ml_work]

Brian - "They have been in full sun in my zone 7B climate."
Brian I have read they like full sun. My plan is to put this on the east side of my house. Full sun about 4-6 hours a day, afternoon shade. This has been a good place for maples that seemed to get too much sun everywhere else I have tired. Do you think this will be enough per day?
Thanks

 

[JudyB]

Full sun about 4-6 hours a day, afternoon shade

This is about what mine gets and is a happy vigorous grower there. They don't like their roots to get hot, or dry out at all, so in hot parts of the summer I think it's a good plan for some afternoon shade.

 

[Paulpash]

@Brian Van Fleet Thank you (and @JudyB too - she posted her wonderful bark thread) for the info. Low branches down low needed then. Having never chopped a Stewartia I don't know how well or poorly they will respond with a chop. I suspect few have tried ground growing their own. I went to a bonsai nursery today in the UK and and a trunk the size of a middle finger was £200 - about 300 bucks. The bark is great though If you ever try to propagate and get success plz post! I suspect mine is several seasons away from even an attempt.