Strainers:

[Vance Wood]

If you have done any study on how roots react to different stimuli there is a thread that seems to be a constant. The top of a tree will in one way or another reflect the development of the roots. In a potted environment a tree will develop normally until the roots start impacting the sides of a container. Once this happens the tree will start to become stunted and will stop growing large. It is trying to adapt to an environment that cannot sustain a tree two-hundred feet tall, but maybe a small tree two-hundred years old. It is a matter of adapting to available resources. It is because of the phenomenon that we can have bonsai at all.

In the early stages of a trees development pot culture is fine as long as the tree is not aware it is in a limited environment like a walled in pot. This is why these trees are potted up from time to time, it keeps them growing. In a screen sided container, or colander or pond basket the tree can grow in such a way that it is not aware that it is in a confined environment. I have found that a screen planter will get you almost as good a development as when using an open field approach, maybe a bit slower but the trunk will continue to thicken significantly and the top will grow out a lot if you don't watch it.

 

[Graydon]

My concerns with Matsuo's practice is that he is trimming off the roots on the face of the first colander. How much root back budding is occurring in the first colander in comparison with fine feeders between the colanders. IN the book, separation occurs after 6 years of growth, or 4 with dble colanders.

Couldn't tell you that now, give me a few years. Would be happy to shake a tree out of a colander that has been in place for a single season to test the idea of the root tips being air pruned and dividing back a bit.

IMO age is not a factor in root development.

Right. No... wrong IMO. I would nearly kill (or at least maim) to have the active root growth on some of my older pines as I do on the younger ones. The seedlings up to 4 or 5 years seem to put a great deal of energy in to developing a mass of feeder and anchoring roots. I work just as hard to remove the fat anchoring roots and try to develop nebari and a pad of feeder roots. The same is not true on my older pines. I have to be slow and methodical in the same type development or I will kill the tree. I always bare root young pines as they seem to recover in a season. Not so on the older ones, even with a vigorous tree.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Right. No... wrong IMO. I would nearly kill (or at least maim) to have the active root growth on some of my older pines as I do on the younger ones. The seedlings up to 4 or 5 years seem to put a great deal of energy in to developing a mass of feeder and anchoring roots. I work just as hard to remove the fat anchoring roots and try to develop nebari and a pad of feeder roots. The same is not true on my older pines. I have to be slow and methodical in the same type development or I will kill the tree. I always bare root young pines as they seem to recover in a season. Not so on the older ones, even with a vigorous tree.
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I am going to disagree on this one Graydon, it is not a matter of opinion but a matter of facts. Can you honestly tell me, sitting at your keyboard, knowing the benefits of screened containers (if you have first hand experience with them) that all your trees would not benefit from this practice? I beg to differ. As a matter of fact it is probably, no, it is better for root development than planting out any day, and twice on Sundays. Vance allures to this. There is a caveat however, because of our comparatively speaking inorganic medium, they require an adequate and sustainable feeding regimen. Top growth is equal to bottom growth, this is a proven fact. The healthier the root system, the healthier the tree will be topside, and what is more conducive to health than a network of fine "feeder" roots below the soil line?

As mentioned earlier, all my trees under development (for whatever reason) are all in patented pond baskets.

 

[Graydon]

I am going to disagree wholeheartedly on this one Graydon, it is not a matter of opinion but a matter of facts. Can you honestly tell me, sitting at your keyboard, knowing the benefits of screened containers (if you have first hand experience with them) that all your trees would not benefit from this practice? I beg to differ. As a matter of fact it is probably, no, it is better for root development than planting out any day, and twice on Sundays. Vance allures to this. There is a caveat however, because of our comparatively speaking inorganic medium, they require an adequate and sustainable feeding regimen. Top growth is equal to bottom growth, this is a proven fact. The healthier the root system, the healthier the tree will be topside, and what is more conducive to health than a network of fine "feeder" roots below the soil line?

As mentioned earlier, all my trees under development (for whatever reason) are all in patented pond baskets.

Huh? My response was strictly directed to your comment about "age is not a factor in root growth". I read your response several times and if you explained or backed up that statement I didn't see the proof or facts. I can tell you that all of my trees would not benefit from this practice. Sometimes it's simply better to slap a tree in the ground and let it grow. Development is all about building trunks and nebari. Some trees build fine trunks in the ground. Faster than in a restrictive container.

Top growth is equal to bottom growth? I don't think I have seen that fact. I have seen it discussed but I have not seen it in stone.

No need to preach to me about mesh pots Rick, I agree with their use. I have never said I do not and I have no idea where you got the idea I don't use them. I recommend them as often as I can and I have done so many times here on this site.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Couldn't tell you that now, give me a few years. Would be happy to shake a tree out of a colander that has been in place for a single season to test the idea of the root tips being air pruned and dividing back a bit.

I don't know why it works, Vance provided a good explanation. All I know is that it does work.

Right. No... wrong IMO. I would nearly kill (or at least maim) to have the active root growth on some of my older pines as I do on the younger ones.

The seedlings up to 4 or 5 years seem to put a great deal of energy in to developing a mass of feeder and anchoring roots. I work just as hard to remove the fat anchoring roots and try to develop nebari and a pad of feeder roots. The same is not true on my older pines. I have to be slow and methodical in the same type development or I will kill the tree. I always bare root young pines as they seem to recover in a season. Not so on the older ones, even with a vigorous tree.

What makes you say this would not occur in a modified pond basket? No need to bare root here, just a quick slip pot will render results. I'm not saying to do it with all your older established trees, but why not try it on one which you want to develop better roots and is otherwise healthy. You have everything to gain, what have you got to loose?

Huh? My response was strictly directed to your comment about "age is not a factor in root growth". I read your response several times and if you explained or backed up that statement I didn't see the proof or facts. I can tell you that all of my trees would not benefit from this practice. Sometimes it's simply better to slap a tree in the ground and let it grow. Development is all about building trunks and nebari. Some trees build fine trunks in the ground. Faster than in a restrictive container.

Slapping a tree in the ground may or may not necessarily lead to faster growth, let me explain.

Are we in agreement that a healthy root system of fine feeders roots is more beneficial to a tree than large roots with just a few feeders? The large roots outside of anchoring the tree will feed it very little in comparison. Which in your opinion is conducive to optimal growth?

The ground has been the place to grow out trunks for many years now, and very little is known about the benefits of pond baskets.

What is the chief advantage of pond baskets? Maximum oxygenation! This does not readily occur in the ground, comparatively speaking.

What produces roots, feeder roots? A supply of oxygen water and nutrients. If all three required elements occur locally, what do you believe is happening below the soil? On the other hand while planted in the ground roots will search for these elements, resulting in long unwanted root growth with only a few feeders while searching for water and nourishment.

I believe that a properly nourished tree will develop just as well if not better in modified pond baskets than they will in the ground. The caveat, proper nourishment, which I believe has not been accomplished at the same rate as other technical advancement in our craft.

Top growth is equal to bottom growth? I don't think I have seen that fact. I have seen it discussed but I have not seen it in stone.

A healthy root system will lead to a profusion of top growth. A profusion of solar panels rendering chlorophyl needs a place for storage, the root mass. If insufficient roots exist, they are created and the circle continues. Those are my beliefs anyway.

No need to preach to me about mesh pots Rick, I agree with their use. I have never said I do not and I have no idea where you got the idea I don't use them. I recommend them as often as I can and I have done so many times here on this site.

I'm not trying to preach, nor lecture you Graydon just trying to explain the benefits of modified pond baskets through my experience with them.

http://www.superoots.com/air_intro.htm

 

[Vance Wood]

Here is something to ponder: Trees grown in the ground for trunk development do not develop the kind of bark that a tree grown in a container, pond basket or screened planter will develop. Development of trunk size may be a bit slower in one of these devices but it will happen where it will not noticeably in a regular pot or bonsai pot. The difference is going to be the quality of the bark. If you want conformation of this find the edition of Bonsai Today where the first occurrence of the colander method was introduced, the Japanese artist who put this forward made that claim and had the photo evidence to prove it. I can only tell you that Shimpakus and Mugo Pines continue to thicken, the Mugos develop a really nice bark.

 

[Gnome]

Vance,

Thanks for your thoughts, I'm convinced of the benefits of using these containers. My uncertainty lies in the area of growing out young material. What are the benefits versus the liabilities of stepping up through more than one size as opposed to "over-potting" initially. Consider two scenarios; one in which a young tree is potted in a 5" pond basket, as mine are now. And another where a 10" inch basket is used.

In the first scenario the roots will travel 2.5" before being subjected to the air/light pruning we seek and ramification of the roots occurs relatively close to the stem. In the second scenario the roots must travel twice as far before encountering the holes in the pots. Will root ramification then occur primarily at the perimeter or equally along the length of the root?

On a more practical note I have followed the outline in the Pine book and I am now approaching the third season, the second in the 5" baskets. Where do I go from here? Allow another year to pass and nest the 5" pots in larger ones as in the book? Or simply move to the larger containers this season or next?

Thanks for your consideration.

Norm

 

[Vance Wood]

It really is dependant on what size tree you are trying to develop. If you read my root pruning article you will see that I recommend removing the tree from the training planter, in your case a colander, washing some of the soil from around the base of the trunk in an attempt to remove the rest of the original nursery/field soil and replanting the tree in the original container. You can prune some of the new roots if you wish but you should concentrate on removing any of the remaining larger roots from the original planting into the training planter. If you keep moving the tree into successively larger colanders you will never address the above problem until it comes time to put it in a bonsai pot which is a little late. My original idea was to develop a way to totally regrow and replace an existing marginal root system with a new optimal root system.

I also agree with your assessment that the concept of colander inside a colander only provides an excuse for more work than necessary.

The growing out of young material should be done in successive containers. In order for the device to do its job it is critical that the roots encounter the perimiter of the planter and encounter the air/light pruning, this is what causes the development of fine feeder roots.

 

[AndyWilson]

Vance, what is your opinion on the escape technique for development, whereby the roots are allowed to escape out of a pot or nursery bag into the ground and grow freely?

This solves a lot of my space problems and seems to give a compact root system to boot, due to my limited years in bonsai i have yet to discover a negative with this method of growing, i was just wondering if there is one.

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance, what is your opinion on the escape technique for development, whereby the roots are allowed to escape out of a pot or nursery bag into the ground and grow freely?

This solves a lot of my space problems and seems to give a compact root system to boot, due to my limited years in bonsai i have yet to discover a negative with this method of growing, i was just wondering if there is one.

I think it is a bad concept. If you allow a root or two or a dozen to escape from a pot those roots, having access to free space to roam with unlimited resources of fertilizer, water and what ever, are going to quickly dominate the rest of the constricted and maybe compacted root system in the pot. If this is allowed to continue those roots will cause the root system you may want to utilize to atrophy and die. If not you still have to deal with the existing root system in making it one that is compatible to a bonsai pot, plus the shock involved in cutting off those roots you allowed to escape.

 

[Rick Moquin]

It took me a while to digest that on Vance.

With all the confusing going on back and forth, IMO let's stop discussing it and get on with it. The way I approach bonsai is to try things first hand based on good information. Folks have been around the forums long enough, that they should be able to decipher for themselves, what's bogus and what is not!

Everyone has a volunteer in their collection, make them volunteeer I now know first hand the benefits of pond baskets or modified pond baskets. The question to the rest, how long are you willing to waste????

 

[FOX7591]

Found these strainers, the holes are small enough to hold the soild. Just under a foot in diameter, and bout 4" tall

These any good?


And could i ask what < IMO > stands for?


thanks

 

[Anonymous User]

IMO = In My Opinion.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Found these strainers, the holes are small enough to hold the soild. Just under a foot in diameter, and bout 4" tall

These any good?


And could i ask what < IMO > stands for?


thanks

I'd used them.

 

[Vance Wood]

Put blocks of wood or brick under them to keep them from direct contact with the ground and to allow air to circulate. Other wise you defeat the purpose of using them.

 

[Graydon]

Put blocks of wood or brick under them to keep them from direct contact with the ground and to allow air to circulate. Other wise you defeat the purpose of using them.

Same goes if they are on a bench. The damp area under the bottom of them fills with roots.

 

[FOX7591]

Thanks,

So overall, for plantrs potted up into these strainers they would be treated the same as if they were potted into a regular pot... except the fact that they have to be raised form the ground and watered more..
??

and as for fertalizing, with liquid ferts, would i need to fertalize more because it would drains quicker or should the soil hold enough.?





also this question is a bit out of this conversation...

for my larches, down where i am i hacve a bunch in a cold frame, i heard that it is ok to repot them right now(because they r in a cold frame), but not ok for the larches that arent insaide a cold frame because they r still in a dormancy. does this sound alrigth for anybody?



also would it be useful to mix a bit of bonemeal into my soils as i repot?

thanks everyone.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Thanks,

So overall, for plantrs potted up into these strainers they would be treated the same as if they were potted into a regular pot... except the fact that they have to be raised form the ground and watered more..
??

Many use terracotta bulb pans or shallow saucers as training pots. These also require to be raised of the bench as water will collect below them. Terracotta being somewhat porous will remain to wet. When dealing with pond baskets, you have proper air circulation and root trimming that will also occur at the bottom of the pot vice just the sides.

and as for fertalizing, with liquid ferts, would i need to fertalize more because it would drains quicker or should the soil hold enough.?

Fertilizing is a whole different subject here. Although we believe that after we have watered our trees that all the water has drained out, this is not the case and to really confuse matters the remaining water in the basket will be nearly identical to the water that would remain in a pot of the same dimension. This is cause by the surface tension of the substrate acting on the water, vice the drainage capacity of the device.

As far as feed is concerned, it all depends on the CEC of the substrate you are using vice the device. This article, although not directly related demonstrates this quite nicely.

also this question is a bit out of this conversation...

for my larches, down where i am i hacve a bunch in a cold frame, i heard that it is ok to repot them right now(because they r in a cold frame), but not ok for the larches that arent insaide a cold frame because they r still in a dormancy. does this sound alrigth for anybody?

Do you honestly believe that your trees in the cold frame are not dormant? I have several tropicals indoors that are dormant. Re-potting come spring depends in part to where you are located, in this case you will undoubtedly re-pot in BC weeks before me here in NS. The timing is the key. In my case I'll be starting to watch closely around Mid-March (which is early spring in most bonsai references) as to when it is safe to do so. That being said, your trees will still require protection after being potted up. It is far better to wait a little longer, than have the roots of your newly re-potted tree freeze, than waiting a week or two, should the temperature suddenly plummet.

also would it be useful to mix a bit of bonemeal into my soils as i repot?

thanks everyone.

Define a bit? This is what I personally do, and I prefer to use Myke (blue tub) during my re-pottings. As with the article, it is more important to understand what the components are doing, vice the flavour itself.

 

[frou frou]

Just wanted to mention that inorganic well draining soil, root aeration, frequent watering, etc, may be relatively new techniques in bonsai but are old well understood techniques in hydroponics. Basically borrowing ideas from other fields and experimenting.

 

[Anonymous User]

Just wanted to mention that inorganic well draining soil, root aeration, frequent watering, etc, may be relatively new techniques in bonsai but are old well understood techniques in hydroponics. Basically borrowing ideas from other fields and experimenting.

I would counter with the fact that not a single quality bonsai has yet been created in a typical hydroponic system.

The fact remains, that while some bonsaists use a complete inorganic mix, many do not. Most have some sort of organic in their mix, such as bark, some use peat, other sphagnum moss, etc.

As to burrowing ideas from other fields, the concept of well draining soil, drainage holes to allow such, strictly inorganic mixes (such as straight Japanese Akadama), and frequent watering have been in use long before hydroponics were even thought of.


Will