Strainers:

[frou frou]

I would counter with the fact that not a single quality bonsai has yet been created in a typical hydroponic system.

The fact remains, that while some bonsaists use a complete inorganic mix, many do not. Most have some sort of organic in their mix, such as bark, some use peat, other sphagnum moss, etc.

As to burrowing ideas from other fields, the concept of well draining soil, drainage holes to allow such, strictly inorganic mixes (such as straight Japanese Akadama) have been in use long before hydroponics were even thought of.

Will

Though I was not referring to growing trees specifically for bonsai in hydroponics, I'm pretty sure the fact no quality bonsai has been grown from hydroponics has nothing to do with any shortcoming of hydroponics, but with other factors, such as adherence to traditional methods like yamadori and just growing in a field, it's also a lot cheaper in most instances. Growing with a colander, soil-less mix, frequent watering and fertilizing, is basically hydroponics. That's all there is to it.

Yes most don't, but more are starting to use inorganic mixes or increasing the amount of inorganics, which supports my statement.

Hydroponics also have organics mix into them, like peat, sphagnum moss, and coconut fiber.

I'm mostly referring to using colander/strainer/pond baskets. Aeration and watering is pretty established, and my main point is nobody should claim to have invented the use of them for faster growing of plants, and hopefully nobody has.

Maybe I phrased it wrongly, I should say hydroponics techniques have scientific backing to it, and it should be expected that using similar techniques in bonsai would produce faster growing trees.

 

[Anonymous User]

Though I was not referring to growing trees specifically for bonsai in hydroponics, I'm pretty sure the fact no quality bonsai has been grown from hydroponics has nothing to do with any shortcoming of hydroponics, but with other factors, such as adherence to traditional methods like yamadori and just growing in a field.

Yes most don't, but more are starting to use inorganic mixes or increasing the amount of inorganics, which supports my statement.

Hydroponics also have organics mix into them, like peat, sphagnum moss, and coconut fiber.

I'm mostly referring to using colander/strainer/pond baskets. Aeration and watering is pretty established, and my main point is nobody should claim to have invented the use of them for faster growing of plants, and hopefully nobody has.

Vance Wood was given a patent on his screen sided planter. In fact, I believe that the pond baskets hit the market after his patent. It should be noted that pond baskets were designed and marketed for growing aquatic plants in. Colanders are simply an alternative to these baskets.

Many people may be going all inorganic, but the Japanese have a long history of growing in strictly inorganic mixes, pre-dating hydroponics by at least a half of a century.

If anything, hydroponics "burrowed" from bonsai. The time line supports this theory far better than the reverse.



Will

 

[frou frou]

Vance Wood was given a patent on his screen sided planter. In fact, I believe that the pond baskets hit the market after his patent. It should be noted that pond baskets were designed and marketed for growing aquatic plants in. Colanders are simply an alternative to these baskets.

Many people may be going all inorganic, but the Japanese have a long history of growing in strictly inorganic mixes, pre-dating hydroponics by at least a half of a century.

If anything, hydroponics "burrowed" from bonsai. The time line supports this theory far better than the reverse.
Will

How can you say pond baskets hit the market after his patent? Pond baskets are traditionally used in ponds, hence the name, to protect plants from fish and to keep them contained. I've visited nearly all the bonsai stores online, none sell pond baskets or colanders. Hydroponics stores sell net baskets and other mesh side pots.

Anyway I'm talking about growing trees for bonsai, not using akadama in established bonsai pots, where growth is not rampant. From what I know, Japanese bonsai nurseries still use some soil mix, not akadama or some other inorganic mix to grow for bonsai. And they still grow in fields at some point. So they definitely do not use hydroponic techniques there.

I think you are confused with the centuries old use of akadama in established bonsai, and the discussion here about growing young trees for bonsai use, and trying to maximize growing speed, which is definitely not some old bonsai technique.

Anyway we are going off-tangent, my only point is, it's not surprising you get better growth from increasing aeration from using colanders. Scientific experiments on plant growth, mostly in the field of hydroponics, has established it.

 

[frou frou]

Just wanted to mention that inorganic well draining soil, root aeration, frequent watering, etc, may be relatively new techniques in bonsai but are old well understood techniques in hydroponics. Basically borrowing ideas from other fields and experimenting.

Guess I should have put that better,

Just wanted to mention that inorganic well draining soil, root aeration, frequent watering, etc, may be relatively new techniques in growing young trees faster for bonsai but are old well understood techniques in hydroponics. Basically borrowing ideas from other fields and experimenting.

Using akadama in bonsai pots has nothing to do with increasing growth. You don't want rampant growth in establish bonsai... This thread is about increasing growth, not preventing root rot, or drowning roots, etc.

 

[FOX7591]

This is a maple that wasnt doing good in the garden so i had to dig it up or it would have died. The soil in the garden is just a couple of inches of topsoil then just clay and bad soil mixed, it aint good.
the tree will do fine though it has a lot of fine roots in lose to the trunk, but the top half had to be cut off because the sheep killed that part.i decided to plant it into a strainer...

the soil is pumice, firbark, akadama and sphagnum moss

 

[Anonymous User]

How can you say pond baskets hit the market after his patent? Pond baskets are traditionally used in ponds, hence the name, to protect plants from fish and to keep them contained. I've visited nearly all the bonsai stores online, none sell pond baskets or colanders. Hydroponics stores sell net baskets and other mesh side pots.

His patent was given well over 10 years ago, before pond baskets hit the market.

I think you are confused with the centuries old use of akadama in established bonsai, and the discussion here about growing young trees for bonsai use, and trying to maximize growing speed, which is definitely not some old bonsai technique.

No, I'm not confused, you insinuated that bonsai "borrowed" hydroponic techniques, I stated the fact that the techniques you mentioned were being used in bonsai long before hydroponics.

Anyway we are going off-tangent, my only point is, it's not surprising you get better growth from increasing aeration from using colanders. Scientific experiments on plant growth, mostly in the field of hydroponics, has established it.

You don't get better growth in screen sided planters as compared to the ground, only better fine feeder root development. The best and fastest growth on young material, like you used as an example, is in the ground. Nothing beats uninhibited growth in the ground for fast growth, thick trunks, and such.

The use of screen sided planters is to encourage the root mass of fine feeder roots a plant needs to thrive in a bonsai pot. This is the main and most important reason to use them, not for growth.



Will

 

[Vance Wood]

Frou Frou: It is my hope that you will not take this post as a challenge or one of confrontation but I would respectfully like to ask you a couple of questions. On this Web site there is a section for personal information that in your case is lacking any crucial information that would determine your level of expertise on the issue of "Screened Planters" or any thing similar. How long have you been growing bonsai in particular and how long have you been involved in anything similar subjectively to our discussion? It is not uncommon for someone to come on a site who has read a couple of books, gone to a demonstration, or like event, to think themselves an instant and credible source of information. I am not assuming that you are as previously described, I am hoping that you are experienced and knowledgeable so that we can exchange experiences and ideas. I am trying to determine into which category you fall before we both spend time discussing the differences between experience and fantasy/theory.

 

[Vance Wood]

No reply, I wonder what that means?

 

[Rick Moquin]

I guess it's what's not written that says it all

 

[onthefringe]

Wow I had no idea I was in the presents of such an elite crowd. I'm suprised none of you have broken your arms patting yourselves on the back.

Oh and by the way about patenting a product.... Which since it came up..... There are about 6 different patents you need to apply for to ensure your patent is solely yours. It takes about 2 years to submit a patent search each at a cost. Then and only then do you have a chance fighting for any lost money due to theft (if you have the money to hire a legal team to fight for you).

So how does it feel to know your Patented Grow baskets have priced themselves out of the market because of a less expensive pond basket which do exactly the same thing at a fraction of the arrogance?

I'm out, have fun stroking your ego's

 

[milehigh_7]

Elitist?

While Elitism is one of the least attractive components of the Bonsai community, this forum seems to be far less afflicted with this particular ailment than some others that I will not name.

Who could blame Vance for being proud and protective of his intellectual property? As an engineer, I can relate.

BTW: I am very grateful for this particular advancement and owe Vance an enormous debt of gratitude.

Thanks Vance

A learning lurker

 

[Anonymous User]

Whine, complain, insult, condemn.

That added little to the discussion, if anything.

I guess if I had my choice, I'd take the elitist, arrogant, back pounding with education and intelligent discussion over the above negativity any day.

Vance has good reason to be proud, do you know of another bonsaist with a bonsai related patent? His patent may well be historical as being the first. As to cheaper baskets pricing him out, I have both types in my yard, his are far better looking and more functional, but the pond baskets are cheap enough to be disposable. Needless to say, his are far better looking and he still sells many of them every year.

Try one before you condemn them.

Not out,


Will

 

[Rick Moquin]

I'll 2nd that. I have tried both types. What I like is the versatility of the modified pond baskets over pond baskets, size (limitless), air circulation etc... there is no comparison.

 

[John Hill]

Ok,, you could use pond baskets, colanders or what ever to develop fine roots. This is so you don't have to actually take the tree out and prune the roots the air will do it for you, is this right? Remember when you use to place a concrete slab under a tree that you plant in the ground and then use a shovel and cut around the tree to prune and create fine roots? I still do this.and also use air baskets. This is basically the same IMO.
Growing trees in baskets has its good points but then the tree has to be removed at some point and placed in a shallower depth of soil to work on the nebari. By planting in the ground and cutting the roots with a shovel around the tree, half at a time, letting the other side grow freely giving the tree to reap the rewards of the ground. I guess it is just one of those things that the grower has to decide.
This is a great thread for thought, to make us think about our growing methods.

A Friend in bonsai
John

 

[Chris Johnston]

One constraint not mentioned in any of the articles or in this thread, as far as I can tell, is that strainers and pond baskets are great for smaller trees. For larger trees, grow boxes or growing in the ground will be much more effective.

This means, if you are starting with young seedlings or such, don't expect to grow out a large tree from that aspect. It will have to go in the ground sooner or later, preferably sooner.

 

[Anonymous User]

One constraint not mentioned in any of the articles or in this thread, as far as I can tell, is that strainers and pond baskets are great for smaller trees. For larger trees, grow boxes or growing in the ground will be much more effective.

I'm sorry, I disagree.

No matter what the size of the tree is, nothing beats a screen sided planter for creating fine feeder roots close to the trunk. Growing in the ground will certainly not produce this quality or quantity of feeder roots as quickly with so little effort. Certainly root pruning while in the ground can accomplish this, but when roots are pruned, the growth is slowed down, defeating the purpose of having it in the ground to begin with.

Screen sided planters are not for rapid growth and I do not believe anyone has claimed such in this thread. The ground is best for that, followed by growing boxes. Again, no matter what the size of the tree may be.

Here is a greatly simplified schedule of use:


Bonsai in 4 easy steps:

1) Ground (fast growth, create trunk movement, taper, and healing of chop scars, etc)

2) Grow Box (refining branch structure placement, nebari, begin rough styling)

3) Screen sided planter (creating fine feeder root mass, begin ramifacation, finer styling)

4) Bonsai pot (tree should have a great root mass and only have fine styling and detail to be done)


Of course steps can be skipped, depending on the material, in example collected material may go straight to step 2 or 3, and in cases where it was growing in a rock crevice and has great rootage, even to step 4. The point is that there is a logical progression based on the needs of the tree at the time and this progression is always forward to a bonsai pot and never backward, unless steps were rushed or skipped at some point, requiring starting over.


Will

 

[Rick Moquin]

One constraint not mentioned in any of the articles or in this thread, as far as I can tell, is that strainers and pond baskets are great for smaller trees. For larger trees, grow boxes or growing in the ground will be much more effective.

This means, if you are starting with young seedlings or such, don't expect to grow out a large tree from that aspect. It will have to go in the ground sooner or later, preferably sooner.

... perhaps true with pond baskets, but if you take the time to read correctly, I always mention modified pond basket "screened grow boxes" in the latter case the sky is the limit wrt size. What I am trying to determine right now is there a difference between grow boxes and pond baskets if size is inconsequential.

I have a rationale, but want to hear other opinion first, because I have some "Hunka" screen sided grow boxes.

 

[Anonymous User]

What I am trying to determine right now is there a difference between grow boxes and pond baskets if size is inconsequential.

I have a rationale, but want to hear other opinion first, because I have some "Hunka" screen sided grow boxes.

This is a little confusing Rick, a screen sided planter is just that, a grow box, as typically defined, is not screened. What you have are some "Hunka" screen sided planters.

I tend to stay away from the word pond basket to avoid confusion and use screen sided planters instead. This covers anything that is used to air-prune roots. A grow box is typically a box built shallowly but can also assume the form of any container, such as dish pans, drawers, even mica or regular pots that are slightly over-sized for the plant and used to allow free growth of the root system.

There is a difference, both types of pots achieve different results and are used for different purposes.


Grow boxes allow the most unrestricted growth outside of the ground. The shallow box is a good environment for creating nebari. The freedom of growth of the roots allow for thickening of the trunk, branches, and nebari.

Screen sided planters continually prune roots, while this is perfect for fine feeder root development, it is counter productive if one needs thicker nebari, shallow nebari, or continued thickening of the trunk or branches.



Will

 

[Vance Wood]

Wow I had no idea I was in the presents of such an elite crowd. I'm suprised none of you have broken your arms patting yourselves on the back.

Oh and by the way about patenting a product.... Which since it came up..... There are about 6 different patents you need to apply for to ensure your patent is solely yours. It takes about 2 years to submit a patent search each at a cost. Then and only then do you have a chance fighting for any lost money due to theft (if you have the money to hire a legal team to fight for you).

So how does it feel to know your Patented Grow baskets have priced themselves out of the market because of a less expensive pond basket which do exactly the same thing at a fraction of the arrogance?

I'm out, have fun stroking your ego's

Just remember all of that the next time you pioneer some sort of technology---if you ever do. By the way did I manage to do you a wrong in some other life? I don't see any reason for your blatant attack other than your unresolved ignorance. On another issue you don't have to tell me the cost, time and diligence involved in getting a patent through to issuance, I've been there----have you?

 

[Chris Johnston]

One constraint not mentioned in any of the articles or in this thread, as far as I can tell, is that strainers and pond baskets are great for smaller trees. For larger trees, grow boxes or growing in the ground will be much more effective.

This means, if you are starting with young seedlings or such, don't expect to grow out a large tree from that aspect. It will have to go in the ground sooner or later, preferably sooner.

Sorry I have to quote myself, I was speaking strictly to strainers and pond baskets, with no reference to larger grow boxes, screen sided or not. Show me some larger trees from strainers and grow baskets.