Stupid things to reply to a beginner

[Cosmos]

This forum is quite noob-friendly. But some posters have a few bad reflexes when it comes to beginners posting pictures of their first (very likely crappy) tree.

Just put it in the ground!

Well, can you imagine, some of us don’t own a piece of land. How about you explain that the fastest growth is achieved by putting the tree in the ground, but barring that option, there are other things you can do (big pot, etc.). Also, be aware that beginners, in general, don’t want to put their tree in the ground and out of sight for 10 years. They want to play with it now.

Just airlayer it!

Airlayering is not something that your run of the mill beginner probably knows how to do. Maybe he/she has never even heard of it! How about providing a a few resources about the technique and why it is useful.

Bad wiring! (or wiring was a bad idea)

How about providing a link to a tutorial, or explain why wiring was a bad idea in this case?

Get it out of that bad soil/muck/clay/topsoil!

Is that really the right time of year to do that? How about giving a link about how to do a repot from a beginner’s perspective. A tree can live for years in bad soil if properly watered. Explain the benefits of draining bonsai soil.

This species is not suitable for bonsai.

How about suggesting similar species that are more suitable, and explain what suitability for bonsai even is.

Straight, boring trunk, no taper

How about asking the poster why he/she likes about the tree, and go from there.

I see inverse taper!

Explain what inverse taper is. Why it is not generally considered a good thing. Offer suggestion as to how to avoid it for the next purchase.

Overall, I guess the idea is to not post if you’re not there to help. Also, if the beginner asks a question, please answer it, instead of just offering a four-word negative comment and then leaving.


*****

OTOH, universally good replies:

Indicate where you live in order for us to give you advice.
You should join a bonsai club in your area.
A bonsai lives outside as much as possible.
Focus on keeping the tree alive for a bit.
Spend time with your tree, look at it from all angles, think about all the possibilities, what you like about it.
Take things slow.
Here are some threads/links that you should read.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

Not saying you are wrong. It's just the web is full of useful information on many of the items you mentioned. When getting into any hobby there is a certain amount of legwork a person should do before jumping in. If I ran a search on wiring, taper, layering for bonsai I could easily find a tutorial. Most of the time newbies do get good advice on their species.

 

[petegreg]

Hi Cosmos, I wanted to quote your quoted questions, but it's impossible.
1...put it in the ground thing
It really works. If you have somebody in your family owning some land it can be done. Visiting them you can check your trees, lay some slow release fertilizer down for them, do some pruning, cut the roots with a spade now and then...
For sure this can be done in slighy larger pots, but it takes more time and patience.

2... A-L is not so difficult. Get to know species that can be propagated by A-L and or by cuttings . This and previous point can be responded by make the smallest believable tree... and for us cheap guys it's a way to get two for one and have a back up material of species we've been looking for ages for instance.
Give it a try!
3... wiring... yes, always know what you want to achieve, priorities, timing, health, practice.
4. ... soil... species related. When I'm starting with some new species, I use uncle Google for its requirements. Doesn't matter if it's from a bonsai article, a general species guide will respond many questions. Timing and health really matters. There's an exhausting article/thread by @markyscott in a resource section that will name all pros of various soil components and much more.
5. ...species for bonsai... the best for you are always your native trees. Wanting to keep sub or tropicals we do our best to mimick as good environmental conditions for their well-being as we can. Some species are notoriously known for a branch die back, big leaves or long petioles or internodes, suitable for bigger trees only. Things to consider.
6. ... trunk line and character. I really like your note. It's all about what you personally like and how it can be used and incorporated into the design.
6. ... inverse taper... we always want to show a miniaturized picture of an old tree. Yes, trees with an inverse taper are present in nature, but we're perfectionists.

Thank you for this thread, for submitting these issues, we all learn. You'll find yourself running into new things every now and then even after 20 years in hobby.

 

[Danny Tuckey]

I hate the 'join your local club' answer. I mostly work evenings. All clubs in the uk have their meetings in the evening at like 7:30pm. Therefore I cannot join! I've been wanting to go for ages but never get the chance especially with it being on only once a month.
And to me giving a line of 'join your local bonsai club' just doesn't help with what they're asking for advice on. It will help at a later date if they go but not in the present time as they'd like an answer at this given moment. It's an escape line to look like you're giving advice but really you're not.
Rant over. - hopefully smiles all around - ?

 

[JoeH]

I love the "not suitable for bonsai" one. I read that a lot then I see Nigel Saunders with an Aloe bonsai and I love it.

 

[AlainK]

Hi éCosmos"

This forum is quite noob-friendly. But some posters have a few bad reflexes when it comes to beginners posting pictures of their first (very likely crappy) tree. (...)

I award you the "post of the month" medal, which amounts to nothing really, but that's so true.

Of course, it's more than that, but yes, as we say over here "tu as mis le doigt où ça fait mal" (smthg like "you put your finger where it hurts")

 

[AlainK]

I hate the 'join your local club' answer.

I don't:

I learned more in a few months than in several years.

It's not only because others have more knowledge about how to cultivate a plant, a tree, a bonsai. It's also getting different points of view, asking yourself questions, trying to find answers, progressing.

Of course, you can always stay in your own tiny world, thinking the rest of the universe is watching every twirch in your right cheek, but then you'd better be an exceptional artist and modern kultivator who doesn't need anyone's - brrrr - critique or advice

Of course, one can probably practise bonsai alone - in a cave, with artificial lights, why not?

But like many things on earth, it's much, much better when you don't "practise on your own".

And I find it quite odd that you post on a "forum", a place to share points of view online and anymously but refuse to meet people in the real world...

 

[Clicio]

This forum is quite noob-friendly. But some posters have a few bad reflexes when it comes to beginners posting pictures of their first (very likely crappy) tree.

Very interesting points, @Cosmos.
I surely believe that most of the answers to a noobie on this forum are well intended, but some, like you said, are automatic. Like the "club" one (there's no club where I live, for instance.)
But on the other hand a beginner if really interested in bonsai should make one's homework before asking so many repeated questions that the more experienced try to answer over and over again, which in fact is a pain.

 

[Clicio]

Of course, you can always stay in your own world, but the you'd better be..

There are some places where a "local club" is not a reality.
Of course joining a community of bonsai growers is a good point; but for some this forum is the closest one can get to a club.

 

[Cosmos]

Not saying you are wrong. It's just the web is full of useful information on many of the items you mentioned. When getting into any hobby there is a certain amount of legwork a person should do before jumping in. If I ran a search on wiring, taper, layering for bonsai I could easily find a tutorial. Most of the time newbies do get good advice on their species.

I am not sure I am right either I guess I’m just trying to "start a debate", in the parlance of our times (brownie points if you get the movie reference).

I agree that this forum contains more than enough information, but not everybody is super intent on reading everything before asking a question.

I hate the 'join your local club' answer. I mostly work evenings. All clubs in the uk have their meetings in the evening at like 7:30pm. Therefore I cannot join! I've been wanting to go for ages but never get the chance especially with it being on only once a month.
And to me giving a line of 'join your local bonsai club' just doesn't help with what they're asking for advice on. It will help at a later date if they go but not in the present time as they'd like an answer at this given moment. It's an escape line to look like you're giving advice but really you're not.
Rant over. - hopefully smiles all around - ?

Good point. I think you might still benefit from joining a club for the fringe benefits, like a Facebook group of people in your area, special workshops or lectures (hopefully on week-ends!).

 

[M. Frary]

Foemina!

 

[Michael P]

When replying to a beginner, be welcoming, be courteous, and answer specific questions with specific answers. Yes people should do their research when starting out. But for a fair number of people, their first bonsai is an impulse. Gently direct them to the right sources.

Bonsai is a complex subject, and people learn in different ways. Bonsai is a three dimensional art form, and no matter how much research you do in print or on screen, the flat image does not convey sculpture. With practice, we infer three dimensions from two, but beginners haven't learned to do that yet.

 

[It's Kev]

Each to his own, I guess. Some newbie posters are easily offended and others aren’t. Same way some of the veterans here are different, some will give good fatherly advice and others give...let’s call it “tough love”. A lot of people think this forum is awesome, and then others expect everybody to change to suit themselves.

 

[Anthony]

Best advice given --------- read archives with notebook and pen.

When for example help was needed with Jewellery, over at the
then Ganoskin forum -- 2 months reading, notes, and big books
from the University library - never needed to post on the forum.

Clayart [ pottery .ceramics ] was the same and a very friendly
list, so chatting took place.
But once again books on oxides / mole mole / expansion factors etc., had
to be read.

IBC, a very friendly list and because Bonsai was done since 1980,
or 1979, no sweat.
Entered the Internet, laptop on desk, in 1987 or so.
______________________________________________________

I asked K ] brother-in- law ] to respond above.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[leatherback]

but not everybody is super intent on reading everything before asking a question.

So.. We should then do the legwork for them? I am not convinced you should start looking up the resources. Sorry, but that is not helping people. Because the person will be back tomorrow with another question that has been answered 20 times. Just stating that ground growing is the better option, is the right advice. Whether or not someone has ground available. Same with a club. In some cases it is just virtually impossible to advice over the web. A tree needs to be send 3D for the best styling advice. And repotting is best done with some experienced if you have a black thumb. Whether or not the advice suits the poster is up to the poster to decide. And air layering: You type in air layer in the search and you get a mountain of thread.

Nah, I do not agree with you.

I see Nigel Saunders with an Aloe bonsai

I tried to find it. I cannot for the life of me find an aloe bonsai. I see a lot of unhappy aloe in pots. But none of them have anything to do with bonsai. Do you have a link? Curious to see it.

 

[JoeH]

So.. We should then do the legwork for them? I am not convinced you should start looking up the resources. Sorry, but that is not helping people. Because the person will be back tomorrow with another question that has been answered 20 times. Just stating that ground growing is the better option, is the right advice. Whether or not someone has ground available. Same with a club. In some cases it is just virtually impossible to advice over the web. A tree needs to be send 3D for the best styling advice. And repotting is best done with some experienced if you have a black thumb. Whether or not the advice suits the poster is up to the poster to decide. And air layering: You type in air layer in the search and you get a mountain of thread.

Nah, I do not agree with you.

I tried to find it. I cannot for the life of me find an aloe bonsai. I see a lot of unhappy aloe in pots. But none of them have anything to do with bonsai. Do you have a link? Curious to see it.

sure, I watched it the other day. Its a pretty happy looking Aloe.

 

[leatherback]

sure, I watched it the other day. Its a pretty happy looking Aloe.

And you would consider this bonsai?

 

[Potawatomi13]

If beginner has no patience perhaps is best to discourage early on.

 

[rockm]

I hate the 'join your local club' answer. I mostly work evenings. All clubs in the uk have their meetings in the evening at like 7:30pm. Therefore I cannot join! I've been wanting to go for ages but never get the chance especially with it being on only once a month.
And to me giving a line of 'join your local bonsai club' just doesn't help with what they're asking for advice on. It will help at a later date if they go but not in the present time as they'd like an answer at this given moment. It's an escape line to look like you're giving advice but really you're not.
Rant over. - hopefully smiles all around - ?

I really, REALLY, REALLY think this is a cop-out.

Yeah, you can get to a meeting if you make an effort. Hell, you don't even have to attend. CALL THE CLUB for crying out loud. Make contact with an actual person at the club. Explain your situation, that you're interested, but meeting times are very difficult for you. If the club is worth its salt (and the vast majority are), they will find some way to help you, IF you are really interested and can work around your limitation.

Simply ASKING for help can produce all kinds of things -- you will probably be amazed at what comes up. Ask if you can visit one of the club member's house when you have time to do so, ask if you can help with repotting on weekends in the spring. Ask if there is anyone near you in the club, then call them and ask if they need maintenance help, or would be willing to show you how to care for trees, etc. Be creative for crying out loud.

Nothing will happen if you just sit on your ass and complain that you have no access to resources.

FWIW, The root of many of the cranky responses here (mine included) are because people expect things to be made really really easy and convenient. Those of us who have been doing this for a couple of decades know that to get anywhere with this obsession/hobby is to reach out to ACTUAL PEOPLE.

I know I sound like a ranting old man telling people how things were back in the day--and people are rolling their eyes or saying "eff you Rockm you don't know my situation or something stupid like that--BUT, back then legwork wasn't only expected, it was required. You couldn't sit in your chair in front of a screen in 1992 and get instant responses to questions. You had to get out and look at trees, meet people, be willing to physically go places.

I think that it's much the same today for anyone who wants to really learn stuff. The 'net is the best thing ever invented, but will probably first domino in the implosion of western civilization...

 

[Bananaman]

Wow...that takes the pressure off...Thanks, Mark!