Substrate, wooden boxes, pond baskets & colanders

[Japonicus]

@Japonicus ,

look up the Ball Bearing Principle and get a jar of same size marbles
See how they touch.
Good Day
Anthony

growing in 3 mm glass spheres

Hi Anthony. So how does this affect acid levels? I read somewhere that improper smaller sized Turface
can settle and cause acid toxicity. Perhaps it was the pH of the component, becoming more concentrated
as it sifted out of mixture to the bottom or more close together. So instead of 1:5 ratio at mix, maybe lower
in a pot, now with age, agitation and watering the acidic component is at a 3:1 ratio dropping the pH where
the lower feeder roots uptake? I don't know.

Now enter not an acidic medium, rather a more neutral medium, same size as Turface,
and with settling there's less of a rolling friction reduction (increasing traction/friction) and the
tree can become more stable, without acid toxicity? I am asking here, because I really don't know.

The pH factor may not be an issue at all, but this is what I read from where I ordered the lava and pumice...
"Monto Clay ®, short for Montmorillonite clay, is a fired clay product used to amend soil. Montmorillonite is sold under other brand names such as Turface MVP®.

The advantage of Monto Clay is the 1/4 inch particle size. 1/4 inch particles prevent dry spots, poor drainage and settling which can create acidic shock. Ideal for use in bonsai soil, cactus soil, succulent soil, hydroponics and amending soil to increase drainage.

Montmorillonite is known for its cation exchange capacity(CEC). It’s also a great acidifier. The acidic properties help offset the alkaline properties of other ingredients such as pumice and lava rock. Monto clay is a great substitute for Akadama."

I did not order any Clay since I got the 8822 DE

 

[Japonicus]

Here's the 8822 DE on the Left and the current soil I'm replacing with larger sizes sifted out. Roughly ~ 1/4" yield.



At what ratio should the 8822 make up my substrate for starters ?
I plan to begin here using small scoop 1/4C as one part (1) and visually noting
It may take a couple years to tune the mix in, but hope this is a good start as follows...

1/4" Lava Rock........1 part (retains 12% of its' weight in moisture)
1/4" Pumice ............1 (retains 24% weight in moisture)
3/16" Granite...........1 (the rest unknown moisture retention)
8822 DE........1/2 to 1
1/4" Fir bark .........1/2

I will probably use my current mix + Double Line Hard quality akadama for Hinoki Cypress.
Am hoping to get the 8822 right 1st go round to prevent excess moisture, the soil for the Hinoki will have.

 

[Tieball]

I'm going with the Fir bark since it's supposed to last a little longer than Pine bark. [/SIZE]

I mentioned I have those large bags if Aged Pine Bark. I've researched that additive to my mix and....walked away with a firm idea that I’d use what’s sold and called Repti-Bark. It's used for reptile beds. Same Douglas Fir chips 1/4” to 1/2” and manufactured well as its target use is reptile living beds. The Reptile-Bark is sold at pet shops. Oddly, I found, after comparisons, that the medium sized bags (I think they are about 3.5 gallon size bags) have smaller particle sizes (the 1/4-1/2) while the largest bags had what appeared to be more 3/4” size particles. It is moderately inexpensive. Just thinking....you might explore this in a pet shop near you. I explored at Pet Smart and PetCo as example stores. When my Aged Pine Bark supply dwindles down...I plan to buy some Reptile-Bark and try it out.
The Reptile-Bark is a Douglas Fir bark product. Explore...let me know what you think?
I compared Douglas Fir chips specific with a Bonsai use label to Douglas Fir chips labeled for reptile use....same product. The Repti-Bark chips were not all flat too...I liked that. I recall the chips, if I set a measure, were like 1/4” wide, 1/2” long and 3/16” thick.
Just thought I’d pass along an option for your consideration....and budget saving.

 

[Anthony]

@Japonicus ,

we use as our main inorganic - 5 mm silica based gravel,
and as our inorganic -- aged compost [ a blend of organics done in the back yard.]
[ max of compost 3 parts to 7 parts inorganic by volume / shovel loads.]

The compost holds 20 times it's weight in water, the silica based gravel will only
hold water around itself.

Trinidad's soils are mostly heavy clay.

When we add in the other inorganic - 5 mm crushed earthenware brick it is
to replace some of the silica based gravel for water retention.
This will hold water in itself and also fertiliser in suspension in the water.

Okay that said, there is a good chance the mix is slightly acidic as the
Tamarind and Azalea, acid lovers, give no problems in the above mixes.
Additionally in the early days we used to blend the compost with peat moss
which is supposed to be acid in anture.

Our trees [ not growing on limestone, we have hills of this material ] may be
more acidic in soil preference.

Additionally our inorganic components are invulnerable to root destruction.
After a 30+ year growing cycle, tests showed, no loss of volume in the inorganics
and no fat roots forming.

As to fired clay, you could just soak for 24 hrs and test the water.

Remember if the clay is fired to just 650 deg. C if it is not an earthernware type
it will decay slowly as this is known as ------- sinter binding ------ earthenware
needs to be fired to at least 980 deg.C to be durable.
Stoneware type clays have to be fired even higher for durability.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Japonicus]

I compared Douglas Fir chips specific with a Bonsai use label to Douglas Fir chips labeled for reptile use....same product. The Repti-Bark chips were not all flat too...I liked that. I recall the chips, if I set a measure, were like 1/4” wide, 1/2” long and 3/16” thick.
Just thought I’d pass along an option for your consideration....and budget saving.

Thanks, sounds great Tieball. Already ordered 2g from BonsaiJack, will keep that in mind
if I decide to keep bark chips in my mix. Don't see omission of it, rather adjustment as I've always
had some type of organics in my soils to some degree. I bet wood chips are a bit more tedious to sieve.

 

[Japonicus]

@Japonicus ,

we use as our main inorganic - 5 mm silica based gravel,
and as our inorganic -- aged compost [ a blend of organics done in the back yard.]
[ max of compost 3 parts to 7 parts inorganic by volume / shovel loads.]

The compost holds 20 times it's weight in water, the silica based gravel will only
hold water around itself.

Trinidad's soils are mostly heavy clay.

When we add in the other inorganic - 5 mm crushed earthenware brick it is
to replace some of the silica based gravel for water retention.
This will hold water in itself and also fertiliser in suspension in the water.

Okay that said, there is a good chance the mix is slightly acidic as the
Tamarind and Azalea, acid lovers, give no problems in the above mixes.
Additionally in the early days we used to blend the compost with peat moss
which is supposed to be acid in anture.

Our trees [ not growing on limestone, we have hills of this material ] may be
more acidic in soil preference.

Additionally our inorganic components are invulnerable to root destruction.
After a 30+ year growing cycle, tests showed, no loss of volume in the inorganics
and no fat roots forming.

As to fired clay, you could just soak for 24 hrs and test the water.

"Remember if the clay is fired to just 650 deg. C if it is not an earthernware type
it will decay slowly as this is known as ------- sinter binding ------ earthenware
needs to be fired to at least 980 deg.C to be durable.
Stoneware type clays have to be fired even higher for durability"

Salutations Anthony.
Agreed on the soil pH. If the probe were accurate, 5 yrs ago, my roses were growing in < 5.0 pH
I just wandered if there was any validity to the statement about size particles settling and causing acid shock.
I've no doubt that if you were to stop alongside the road and take a soil sample from the root zone of
a forest of BP, that you would find similar pH to what my roses were growing in. Rather acid. Now the top soil
around the roses, where limestone has been scattered over the years, is only slightly acidic, better for the lawn.
(analysis done by Dept of Agriculture not my probe)

"Remember if the clay is fired to just 650 deg. C if it is not an earthernware type
it will decay slowly as this is known as ------- sinter binding ------ earthenware
needs to be fired to at least 980 deg.C to be durable."
This means then that Turface or Calcined clay will break down, and that vitrified substrate
that dries quickly and holds little moisture is used simply to avoid compaction, right?
Your mention of sinter bound components appears Neutral. To an enthusiast who is strictly inorganic
though (not myself), it could appear to be a Negative comment. I'm learning a bit as I go here.
Like Vance said, finding the home for your roots that works is the most important thing.

I'll take some pics when I get the new soil components in and preliminary mix underway.
Saturday night we were in a Winter Weather advisory locally with the Ohio River in Flood now,
we are forecasting 74ºF for today and 82º for Tuesday. My junipers are beginning to swell in dormancy area.
(no usable light) So soil is a major concern as an early Spring is underway.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Hi Potawatomi. Are you saying your conifers get sifted pumice as the only substrate component?

Yes. As all native/old soil gone from tree this will be the case. Just began progression 2016. So far so good.

 

[Ingvill]

@Anthony :
May I please ask about your glass marbles;
- Do you mix these in the substrate of all your trees or just for certain species?
- Is the purpose of the marbles simply to improve drainage? Or something else as well?
- Are there any drawbacks with using them? Do they get too hot in the sun etc.?

(Sorry if I'm intruding on your thread @Japonicus but this made me curious)

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Back to the issue of using treated wood for boxes. Since I made some boxes recently with treated wood I checked what I was using and its potential toxicity. First there are well over a dozen different formulations used ranging from metals like copper and arsenic to insecticides like imidacloprid. So you really need to look at what is available in your area. The more toxic stuff is used for ground contact wood whereas for above ground installations such as decking it is less toxic. All of these formulations typically include some type of stabilizer that prevents leaching fom the wood. The wood I used is decking and has stabilized imidacloprid insecticide in it so if a termite or other bug eats it the bug dies. A quick internet search will yield many reports on leaching when wood is used in vegetable gardens, playgrounds, etc. So don’t assume that just because you are using PT wood that is has copper in it—many do but not all. Read the label and do the research. Wear a dust mask when cutting and don’t burn any of it.

 

[Japonicus]

Guys, do me a favor check for Chemical drop out in solution with
Granite and Basalt.

We have mountains of road material. that are either granite or basalt chips.
Good size after light sifting for Bonsai soil use.
Trouble is the Tamarind [ acid soil producer ] does not like the material.
It may be decomposing with K20, Na20 or other.

Trees that grow on natural lava flows would probably have no problem
with the stuff.
But those accustomed to older more decomposed soils might have problems.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Japonicus]

Guys, do me a favor check for Chemical drop out in solution with
Granite and Basalt.

We have mountains of road material. that are either granite or basalt chips.
Good size after light sifting for Bonsai soil use.
Trouble is the Tamarind [ acid soil producer ] does not like the material.
It may be decomposing with K20, Na20 or other.

Trees that grow on natural lava flows would probably have no problem
with the stuff.
But those accustomed to older more decomposed soils might have problems.
Good Day
Anthony

Hi Anthony. Sorry about the blank post above...just pushing all the buttons here I guess lol.
I let a glass container rest, filled with 50/50 water/and grower grit (crushed granite for poultry $7/ 50# bag).
In 24 hrs, the tap water, had dropped from 7.0 pH to ~6.5 at the lowest.
I don't have an expensive test kit, but did test.
The water I use, to water my bonsai and drink is 6.0 or lower (bottom of chart).
I may need to put an inline alkali medium to prevent such a drop.
It is RO water, with very low TDS = 4 ppt. My tap water is 157 ppt and 7.0 pH.
We do not trust our water company to be honest about what's in our water anymore.
They are settling a class action law suit at this very moment, for just that.
When they distribute carcinogenic water, then bring in a tanker semi with "safe water" like in a disaster,
which ended up testing and smelling positive for the same chemical (4-Methylcyclohexanemethanol)...

 

[Japonicus]

@Anthony :
May I please ask about your glass marbles;
- Do you mix these in the substrate of all your trees or just for certain species?
- Is the purpose of the marbles simply to improve drainage? Or something else as well?
- Are there any drawbacks with using them? Do they get too hot in the sun etc.?

(Sorry if I'm intruding on your thread @Japonicus but this made me curious)

Not at all. We're all here to learn or help someone else learn something, I would hope.
I'm curious too. I would not use smooth substrate myself. I've been taught that rough porous substrate
causes the finer roots to divide and multiply, but that was years ago. I'm sure that could be challenged though.

 

[Japonicus]

Back to the issue of using treated wood for boxes. Since I made some boxes recently with treated wood I checked what I was using and its potential toxicity. First there are well over a dozen different formulations used ranging from metals like copper and arsenic to insecticides like imidacloprid. So you really need to look at what is available in your area. The more toxic stuff is used for ground contact wood whereas for above ground installations such as decking it is less toxic. All of these formulations typically include some type of stabilizer that prevents leaching fom the wood. The wood I used is decking and has stabilized imidacloprid insecticide in it so if a termite or other bug eats it the bug dies. A quick internet search will yield many reports on leaching when wood is used in vegetable gardens, playgrounds, etc. So don’t assume that just because you are using PT wood that is has copper in it—many do but not all. Read the label and do the research. Wear a dust mask when cutting and don’t burn any of it.

Good point. I still will shun the PT wood.
I'm taking the parental approach. If I have to wear a dust mask to cut it, never burn it,
if I cannot safely consume food grown from within or let children chew on a piece of it
then my trees won't be either. Though probably safe, as I will spray them with Malathion
now and then, but prefer organic safe soap as my go to preventative, I just need more long term
bonsai enthusiasts who've used PT solely for particular trees to feel "safe" using it myself.

For all I know, if I drank tea made from pine bark of fir bark, it could prove toxic to some point.
I don't know, so I'm sticking with Twinings of London for my tea for now

 

[Anthony]

Japonicus, I thought it better to give Ingvill's request a new title .

Errh that water report was frightening.

If you learn a few simple guidelines, you can keep your trees healthy.
Take a little time read through the Bnut archives.

The rough stone / divide / fine roots bit was discredited some years ago on IBC.
It is supposed a genetic response.

Malathion, is supposed to be gene disruptor.

Look into ----- The Ball Bearing Principle.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Japonicus]

Japonicus, I thought it better to give Ingvill's request a new title .

Errh that water report was frightening.

If you learn a few simple guidelines, you can keep your trees healthy.
Take a little time read through the Bnut archives.

The rough stone / divide / fine roots bit was discredited some years ago on IBC.
It is supposed a genetic response.

Malathion, is supposed to be gene disruptor.

Look into ----- The Ball Bearing Principle.
Good Day
Anthony

Ball BearingsYup, I looked it up at your 1st mention of it. Reducing rolling friction.
Yet I'm adding heavy granite to my mix 10-15% maybe more stay tuned.

Malathion, yes I need to research my options for conifers more. I hate gloving up
to use a chemical and safety glasses. My Alberta spruce gets it 1-2x/yr. My bonsai 1x
while I'm at it. I dislike horticultural oils, but that's another subject all together.

So MCHM is used in coal washing somehow. A distributor located on the Elk River here
had a huge leak from a "silo" drum, that got in above the intakes for our water company.
The water smelled of licorice, and our skinned burned when washing with it.
I'm in a town West of the affected area, yet we had it in our water, though in a safe zone
not supplied by that water main. Go figure.
Consider how many food supply, schools, and untold number of businesses
that had to curtail business due to the useless water that took forever to flush out.
The barge loads of activated carbon for the water company to replace...now the households
that had to purchase water, wait in lines for days to get distributed water and so on...

 

[WNC Bonsai]

if I cannot safely consume food grown from within or let children chew on a piece of it then my trees won't be either. Though probably safe, as I will spray them with Malathion now and then, but prefer organic safe soap as my go to preventative

I assume you also don’t let your children chew on your bonsai either, especially after a good dose of Malathion

 

[Japonicus]

I assume you also don’t let your children chew on your bonsai either, especially after a good dose of Malathion

Haha, you're right. Like I said probably safe...just taking the parental stance of the unknown approach.
Malathion is known to be safe for the trees I use it on. I don't know about the PT.
I've used Malathion on my bonsai at least 20 yrs. Once I incorporated PT wood into a grow box...known vs unknown.
I do prefer Mica pots myself. I don't have any kids I'm aware of, but I am the proud pop of 3 cats. 2 are geriatric and consume much of my paycheck.
$500+ today for minor tooth extraction/cleaning and Rx. Ug

 

[Tieball]

Thanks, sounds great Tieball. Already ordered 2g from BonsaiJack, will keep that in mind
if I decide to keep bark chips in my mix. Don't see omission of it, rather adjustment as I've always
had some type of organics in my soils to some degree. I bet wood chips are a bit more tedious to sieve.

Me too....keeping the organic sin the mix. It has served me very well.
Sieving....not so bad at all. But out of a large bag of Aged Pine Bark about 1/3 is discarded. It’s exactly what I though though...so no surprise or other feeling. Just got the planned job done. I examined the Reptile-Bark and there’s hardly any fines and sizing is very uniform....I guess reptiles don’t like dust particles.

 

[Japonicus]

Me too....keeping the organic sin the mix. It has served me very well.
Sieving....not so bad at all. But out of a large bag of Aged Pine Bark about 1/3 is discarded. It’s exactly what I though though...so no surprise or other feeling. Just got the planned job done. I examined the Reptile-Bark and there’s hardly any fines and sizing is very uniform....I guess reptiles don’t like dust particles.

I stopped at at Petco yesterday and looked at the same Fir bark you suggested. Gorgeous colour. And you know Jack at BJ was willing to
send me a return paid label if I wanted to send it back. Absolutely not. My savings on 2g only $7 I would never do a vendor that way.
Talk about customer courtesy, and pretty nice to talk to on the tele too. Thanks!
p.s. He said the Monto clay is fired at 2000ºF. and should last 10 yrs.

 

[Vance Wood]

I have mentioned this perhaps a hundred times so one more time wont matter: How often have you seen a tree in nature growing in a bag of marbles? How often have you seen a tree in nature growing out of a bag of wet concrete? The single most important thing in a soil mix, out side of toxicity, is structure. If it ain't toxic, you can grow a tree in almost anything, there are exceptions for a couple of species, but in general if you can construct a soil mix that will not break down over the years and become compacted you will be fine growing your trees in it.