Substrate, wooden boxes, pond baskets & colanders

[Japonicus]

Thanks for the tips. I'll look around for components but I've seen a lot of BJ stuff floating around and after Japonicus' story I'll probably get some stuff from them, too,

And yes, it is Mugo.

Don't forget milehigh_7 in the Pre Order Sale thread is selling coarse calcined DE.
Probably the exact same product BJ sells as Monto clay.
He said his Monto clay is sized more like his pumice, the lava rock is bigger.
After sifting the 2 together (1/4" sieve, pumice and Monto 1/4 cup each), I had ~30-40 pcs of lava rock
and 1 pc of pumice left on top of the screen. Like an areal shot of an evacuation route just prior to a hurricane.
The pumice was S bound and the lava rock N bound. Super clean though.

 

[sorce]

I really would like to out this in a proper outline. But even if I was sure it would stay formatted......it turns out it would be WAY TOO FUCKING LONG! The number of variables possible under each would need to be reentered for each....blah blah...understanding this may better organize this rant.

I was not happy with the performance of my soil

This is the very phenomenon that leads to the soil wars in the first place, the reason nothing and everything works!

Just repotting is an act that can change the performance of your tree for years, wether you used the "right" soil or not.

I find repotting during the wrong moon phase more detrimental than people realize.
When "the tree didn't skip a beat" is "true", I can 90% guarantee it was always during a waning moon. This can be researched.

How much then does repotting during a waxing moon effect a trees performance?

And if too many roots were removed?
(We can't KNOW this)

And if the tree wasn't healthy enough for a repot in the first place? (We cant know this)

So if person A. repots on a waning moon, leaves enough roots, on a healthy tree, soil X is "good".

If person B. repots on a waxing moon, removes too many roots, on an unhealthy tree, same soil X is "bad".

Those 2 situations are only the extremes.
Most Right. And most Wrong. (Which we cant even know for sure)
The combination of variables on these three repotting factors alone is endless.

Yoinked from elsewhere.......

In total, this means there are 27 different combinations. They are listed below:

rrr bbb yyy
rrb bbr yyr
rbr brb yry
brr rbb ryy
rry bby yyb
ryr byb yby
yrr ybb byy
rby bry yrb
ryb byr ybr

Hence the soil wars see.....
No one ever brings up which combination they are!
And even if we know.....we simply can't "know" if our technique is or was appropriate.

We can only research to fact, the moon, and which repottings were timed correctly.
Once this figure is understood, we can begin breaking down health, and appropriate removal %, in an attempt to understand it better, still, we can never know fpr sure.

What we can know is this of "the shin", the "beating heart"....
Hello Key!

The health of the Shin, the Core, we CAN know this, put a gauge on it.....

Way more important to worry about that than the what soil we use!

Also.....
Nursery's do not spot check and water "a little when a chopstick says so"....

They water the fuck out of every tree everyday and shit thrives!
Uppotting nursery trees never disturbs the shin.

Overwatering doesn't cause root rot.
Stagnant water leads to the conditions that the root rot thrives in.

Watering a lot everyday no matter what the soil is washes water moulds out.

So anyway.....

At least fighting about it was entertaining, trying to make it scientifical and understand something we can never understand without at least starting to understand the shit that actually matters if we want to understand it........

An equal waste of time but with NO entertainment value!

Sorce

 

[Japonicus]

perhaps the mugo/mugho thing is geographical, like color in English and colour in French
we all know it's Vances calling. Ya just gotta love his videos on them.

 

[Timbo]

I think when you claim people are over thinking 'soil', It is a bit unfair to some of us. Paying more for soil than food seems to be more than obsessive, I get what i can afford and what is available in my area. Which seems to be DE, Granite grit and sometimes bark. Use what you want i don't care, I mix stuff based on my temps and how much water i want it to retain. We can't all live in the south or west coast.
I find DE to work great for seedlings/cuttings...I dunno why, maybe the aeration and water retention. I find plain DE in pots does break down in a few years, but it's what i have to deal with.
I imagine farther south it would last longer due to less freeze/thaw cycle.

 

[M. Frary]

So if person A. repots on a waning moon, leaves enough roots, on a healthy tree, soil X is "good".

If person B. repots on a waxing moon, removes too many roots, on an unhealthy tree, same soil X is "bad".

Just remove the right amount of roots when you repot.
No need to worry what phase the moon is in.
That's the best time not to worry about your shins too.

 

[Japonicus]

Thanks guys! At least I'm not ill prepared for potting up this Spring.
It's a bear when a missed opportunity is realized due to misplaced funds and you only have
enough mix for 1/2 the trees that need potting up or less.
So a lot to "sift through" information wise and loads of possibilities.

Now it's the weather, the trees and their interpretation of true Spring, and me to act responsibly on that.
Broke records for the month of Feb this week with temps 81ºF in Charleston, and not much frost wise
for the rest of the month.
Perfect weather ATM to repot. The rains are, well, the Ohio River will crest above minor flood stage again Tues
for the 2nd time in a week. The Sun has been awesome for repotting too. The winds have been kind.
The soil mix ingredients could not have got here at a better time. Thanks again for your helps!

 

[atlarsenal]

Got these at Dollar Tree, not sure how good they will hold up but for a dollar a piece figured I’d give them a try. Good size for seedlings.

 

[Japonicus]

Got these at Dollar Tree, not sure how good they will hold up but for a dollar a piece figured I’d give them a try. Good size for seedlings.View attachment 179302

Cant beat a buck
If they were more squarish than long...+ I would have to line them with screening.
I'm stopping at Lowes later to look for some pond baskets for in ground purposes.
Above ground the soil would probably dry too fast for my display area.
Also reading about using 2 pond baskets like an 8" and 10 or 12" stacked.
Then lifting and cutting the roots between leaving the tree/root ball, in smaller pot undisturbed.

 

[Cable]

I find repotting during the wrong moon phase more detrimental than people realize.
When "the tree didn't skip a beat" is "true", I can 90% guarantee it was always during a waning moon. This can be researched.

Ok, I have never heard that one before.

Also.....
Nursery's do not spot check and water "a little when a chopstick says so"....

They water the fuck out of every tree everyday and shit thrives!
Uppotting nursery trees never disturbs the shin.

I work at a large wholesale nursery. This is true. While we do have watering zones to adjust cycles based on the plant's needs we just let the cycle run. Now, that said, we did get involved with a research project that put sensors into test beds in an attempt to base watering on the actual soil conditions and the results were quite promising.

Good point about uppotting (what we call "shifting), too. We just take the smaller one and plop it into a bigger pot. No disturbed roots. If severaly pot pound the roots will be cut but never deep into the shin.

 

[Japonicus]

The Lowes here had only one size/type pond basket. The holes were too big for 8822
and similar grit, but only $3 for a 10" sq basket.
Instead I picked up one plank of cedar to see how it goes making a grow box.
It's 1" x 8" x 8' and 6" depth of soil would be close to the top being 7-3/16" wide.
This should be about right for my cascade, but it needs a growing season to recoup.

I picked out a cedar plank that had a bunch of staples in one edge ~20 staples maybe
and they dropped the price from $25 to $15. Not bad to have a full 8' usable face.
The back side is rough cut, perfect for the pots interior. I'm slow, give me time to put
this together. I've had a migraine every day this past week including today except maybe one day
which I can't remember if I really had that one day or not now. It's like having a full blown hang over
every day!!! So concentration is not easily attained often time for me. Working with power tools
I have to concentrate a little bit ya know?

Pretty good start for $15 I think

 

[Tieball]

Instead I picked up one plank of cedar to see how it goes making a grow box

You’re thinking right. Cedar is nice and light. Easy to work with. Wood screws work best....with a pilot hole in the first board for screw entry. I use 2x2 stock for box lifting legs....which also make a good handholding area below the box for lifts and moves....but primarily function for air circulation.

 

[Timbo]

Got these at Dollar Tree, not sure how good they will hold up but for a dollar a piece figured I’d give them a try. Good size for seedlings.View attachment 179302

Two problems with those though unless they are the super duty plastic, they bulge at the bottom/sides and i always get soil to fall out of the handles. So you can't get the trees to sit at eye level, because the soil sits a few inches down. Might still be able to use them though. I pick up the hard colanders they have at dollar stores. $2 each. It's not the cheap China crap, it's hard plastic....least at my dollar store.

 

[Timbo]

The Lowes here had only one size/type pond basket. The holes were too big for 8822
and similar grit, but only $3 for a 10" sq basket.
Instead I picked up one plank of cedar to see how it goes making a grow box.
It's 1" x 8" x 8' and 6" depth of soil would be close to the top being 7-3/16" wide.
This should be about right for my cascade, but it needs a growing season to recoup.

I picked out a cedar plank that had a bunch of staples in one edge ~20 staples maybe
and they dropped the price from $25 to $15. Not bad to have a full 8' usable face.
The back side is rough cut, perfect for the pots interior. I'm slow, give me time to put
this together. I've had a migraine every day this past week including today except maybe one day
which I can't remember if I really had that one day or not now. It's like having a full blown hang over
every day!!! So concentration is not easily attained often time for me. Working with power tools
I have to concentrate a little bit ya know?

Pretty good start for $15 I think

Hmm...a tiny bit falls out for me, but i find when they are full of trees and water the DE doesn't fall out much. Same with colanders
When they are frozen none falls outs!
I might get them at HD, but i think they are pretty standard.

 

[Cable]

I bought some of the Lowes 10" baskets Saturday. Haven't filled them with 8822 yet, though. I'm still trying to decide whether to go straight 8822 for now (all my trees are raw so will still have a lot of original soil) or to mix in something else. My head is swimming with lava rock, pumice, perlite, haydite, pine bark, etc. Everybody has such strong opinions on soil! I think I'm more in the Sorce camp of believing while it is important to have a good mix there are other factors more important. Especially at this stage of the game for me. None of my trees will likely ever amount to anything. I'm just trying to keep them alive and learn the basics. When I get better at it I'll accumulate better stock and then better soil mix (like the mighty akadama).

 

[Timbo]

I mix some kind of rock with DE depending on how fast i want it to dry out. I've had to use less grit because it was drying out faster than i wanted in the summer. If i had access to everything i would prolly use pumice/DE/bark in a mix @Cable Keep it simple IMO.

 

[Japonicus]

I mix some kind of rock with DE depending on how fast i want it to dry out. I've had to use less grit because it was drying out faster than i wanted in the summer. If i had access to everything i would prolly use pumice/DE/bark in a mix @Cable Keep it simple IMO.

I like that

Is your primary drying factor wind? Wind is why I added the granite.
It balanced the weight of the previous mix. A weight I was used to.
I'm finding myself looking forward to phasing out the akadama

but I like your blend Timbo. Just curious about your typical wind vs that blend.
For all I know you have a protective fence for your display area...

 

[Vance Wood]

The Lowes here had only one size/type pond basket. The holes were too big for 8822
and similar grit, but only $3 for a 10" sq basket.
Instead I picked up one plank of cedar to see how it goes making a grow box.
It's 1" x 8" x 8' and 6" depth of soil would be close to the top being 7-3/16" wide.
This should be about right for my cascade, but it needs a growing season to recoup.

I picked out a cedar plank that had a bunch of staples in one edge ~20 staples maybe
and they dropped the price from $25 to $15. Not bad to have a full 8' usable face.
The back side is rough cut, perfect for the pots interior. I'm slow, give me time to put
this together. I've had a migraine every day this past week including today except maybe one day
which I can't remember if I really had that one day or not now. It's like having a full blown hang over
every day!!! So concentration is not easily attained often time for me. Working with power tools
I have to concentrate a little bit ya know?

Pretty good start for $15 I think

I feel for you if you starting to have migraines, I suffered with them for many years but they finally went away. Haven't had one is about ten years. Stay away from drugs if you can. The best thing you can do is to lay down and gently message the the area between the eyes around the eye brows. Mine used to last a couple of days. Stress brings them on.

 

[Timbo]

I like that

Is your primary drying factor wind? Wind is why I added the granite.
It balanced the weight of the previous mix. A weight I was used to.
I'm finding myself looking forward to phasing out the akadama

but I like your blend Timbo. Just curious about your typical wind vs that blend.
For all I know you have a protective fence for your display area...

Do you mean blowing the soil away? Or drying it out? I don't have issues with the soil blowing away.
I don't get high winds up here much, but the sun can get hot, mixed in with a breeze off my lake dries it out. Colanders dry out fast, i almost put no grit in it for water loving trees like Hornbeams.
There is no one size fits all soil IMO.

Putting grit on the top does help keep the DE from washing away though...granite grit is also very heavy so i limit it...20% or less for me.
I don't have a fence, but my house is blocking the winds from the west.
The winds are more of a concern in the fall/winter, which at that point it doesn't matter much for the soil.

 

[Japonicus]

I feel for you if you starting to have migraines, I suffered with them for many years but they finally went away. Haven't had one is about ten years. Stay away from drugs if you can. The best thing you can do is to lay down and gently message the the area between the eyes around the eye brows. Mine used to last a couple of days. Stress brings them on.

Hi Vance. So you know the best way to portray how migraines feel is comparing to a bad hangover.
I've been having them since 1 month after shoving the steering wheel out the windshield with
my back on impact with a tree. Wrap your head around that. Had it been my sternum I woulda
plum leaked out. That was 1986 or 31 yrs ago. I have 2-5/wk typically.
I take Zomig for them in the Triptan family of drugs. Usually, dissolves the ache in an hour
but still leaves you in the same brain fog.

Anyway I'm heading up under the sunroom to check on dormancy breakers.
@Vance Wood , while I have you here...what happens to the roots if you repot and the temp drops
to the 20's for a few nights, maybe not breaking freezing during the day by much?
I can avoid direct Sun and all wind inside my sunroom, but cannot beat the temp
save for 68ºF inside the house. Just curious what happens, and why it's such a deal breaker.

 

[Japonicus]

Do you mean blowing the soil away? Or drying it out? I don't have issues with the soil blowing away.
I don't get high winds up here much, but the sun can get hot, mixed in with a breeze off my lake dries it out. Colanders dry out fast, i almost put no grit in it for water loving trees like Hornbeams.
There is no one size fits all soil IMO.

Putting grit on the top does help keep the DE from washing away though...granite grit is also very heavy so i limit it...20% or less for me.
I don't have a fence, but my house is blocking the winds from the west.
The winds are more of a concern in the fall/winter, which at that point it doesn't matter much for the soil.

Hiya Timbo. No not wind blown soil. I mean stability, root hold, and pot stability. Weight.
About everything that comes from Texas or the Gulf of Mexico comes through Appalachia on its way to New England.
Then too the Jet Stream and we live on top of a hill pretty much. It's not like being on Lake Erie or Lake Michigan
but we get some and my trees are frequently on the top rail of the porch with no Westerlies blocked at all.
Put it this way, my 1.5" chimes get tied up frequently so we can sleep