Suggestions for a bonsai from seed

[Occams Hacksaw]

Bonsai from seed sounds like it's easy to do. It's not! When you grow young stock, you want to develop low branches, taper, short internodes...

But how do you do that? If you're a beginner, you won't know how! By the time you learn enough to know how, the seedlings have outgrown the stage where you could have set them on a good course. Meanwhile, the seedlings you have spent years growing a pretty much useless!

The best way to learn bonsai is to start with a larger plant, and cut back. Then let it grow out again. Once you learn how the plant responds, then you'll have an idea of how to grow from seed.

I'm a beginner with bonsai, but not horticulture. I have experience training container plants with guy wires, clipping, pinching, and combating/preventing pests. It's been a hobby of mine for years. I'm just not used to growing things in a drip tray. I am pretty good at moving growth around and keeping plants (and especially their roots) healthy. I enjoy taming plants. That's how you get the most out of them in my experience. That same experience knows that the sooner you start, the better your results. I often start training plants after the 3rd set of leaves depending on the plant and how I want to fill the space with it. I'm expecting that a large amount of my experience will translate well into bonsai.

That being said, I agree and I do fear early critical mistakes/missed opportunities on a plant that you keep around for so long, but I have faith in the community here and intend on showing my progress and asking for advice. According to my research on maples, I prefer a clip and grow method of styling the trunk. I also look forward to early influence of the nebari. My research on other trees and their likes are fuzzy at best. It gets overwhelming fast and I had concern over my original choice of Red Maple, as much as I'd like to do it. With every ones help, though, I'm building a nice list of appropriate trees for my area that work well for bonsai.

Also, yes, I intend on slapping some around in the meantime and I will keep your warning in mind. But if I get 5% of my seeds where I want them, I'll call it a success given it was my first try. I'll also learn a lot.

 

[milehigh_7]

Texas Ebony and Vitex are musts for your list. Pretty easy from seed and they will actually live in your zone. Here are a couple of pics of a month old TE seedling that's actually starting to branch. Love these spiky little buggers.

 

[Rusty Davis]

Good call @milehigh_7 if forget about Texas ebony. Love their bark need one of them too. Do they sell those in nursery's out that way? Maybe work will send me back out so I can get one

 

[milehigh_7]

Good call @milehigh_7 if forget about Texas ebony. Love their bark need one of them too. Do they sell those in nursery's out that way? Maybe work will send me back out so I can get one

Maybe you know someone who can get you one in a couple of months... ;-) To answer you, though... no, they don't sell them much in Vegas. I remember seeing them in a few nurseries in Phoenix years ago. Cool thing about this tree is they seem to love it indoors. Mine are growing under 6500k t5 HO lights.

 

[milehigh_7]

Bonsai from seed sounds like it's easy to do. It's not! When you grow young stock, you want to develop low branches, taper, short internodes...

But how do you do that? If you're a beginner, you won't know how! By the time you learn enough to know how, the seedlings have outgrown the stage where you could have set them on a good course. Meanwhile, the seedlings you have spent years growing a pretty much useless!

The best way to learn bonsai is to start with a larger plant, and cut back. Then let it grow out again. Once you learn how the plant responds, then you'll have an idea of how to grow from seed.

All things being equal @Adair M is 100% right. Unless you are doing it for fun seed is not the best way to get bonsai stock. In fact, the truth is propagation in general, can be pretty darn frustrating with lots of time, money and energy wasted for some pretty meager returns.

 

[milehigh_7]

BTW @Occams Hacksaw I love your username! LOL

 

[Anthony]

How to grow a seed into a pre-Bonsai -

[1] Establish if your victim is a hedging material or a simple tree. A hedging material can be cut back and
will simply resprout all over.

A tree might not be so willing.

************[1b ] it is easiest to learn from the formal upright style *****************
Forget the bends in the trunk.

[2] Focus on the basics - root spread, trunk size and how many branches.
As branches go, lowest one is thickest.
[ unless you are using the Japanese style of thin low branches to make the trunk look thicker.
On our side the proportion is more like - first branch 3/4 thickness of the trunk, second 1/2 and so on.
It's how you observe nature ]

[3] Normally some sort of drawing to help the memory along.

[4] Ground growing in a colander is the fastest way to a thick trunk, and a tree planted on a tile
in the colander will encourage the eagle's claw effect of your surface roots - if once again your
tree has surface roots or you are following a style.

Allow the lowest branch to extend 3 / 6 / 12 feet, more if needed. Then go to the second branch and so on.
Observe.

[5] At least 10 to 20 of the same type to observe effects and hopefully written notes / images.

Not very difficult to do and expect results in 3 to 5 years [ or 8 ] but mature qualities [ such as bark may take up to
10 years to develop. ]
We grow most of our trees from seed, seedling and cuttings.
Climate is too mild and rich to encourage Bonsai type qualities.

Here is an example --------- just pretend it is any one of your trees to be.
Best of growing,
Good Day
Anthony

This is a seed and 6 years or so later , it .is in a bonsai pot [ not shown ]
10 years for the flaking bark effect to take place.
The air pot made the roots super efficient and the leaves are smaller than normal.

 

[Cypress187]

the nebari.

You know you have to wait for that for a few years / a decade right?

Nice avatar!

 

[Occams Hacksaw]

All things being equal @Adair M is 100% right. Unless you are doing it for fun seed is not the best way to get bonsai stock. In fact, the truth is propagation in general, can be pretty darn frustrating with lots of time, money and energy wasted for some pretty meager returns.

Fun is the whole reason I'm getting into this
..but duly noted.

Your mention of having Texas Ebony indoors is really interesting. How long have you had yours inside?

BTW @Occams Hacksaw I love your username! LOL

Thank you! I realize that I like to complicate things from time to time I hope you all bear with me.

But not this multi-quote post. That's elegance I could have used on the first page.

How to grow a seed into a pre-Bonsai -

[1] Establish if your victim is a hedging material or a simple tree. A hedging material can be cut back and
will simply resprout all over.

A tree might not be so willing.

************[1b ] it is easiest to learn from the formal upright style *****************
Forget the bends in the trunk.

[2] Focus on the basics - root spread, trunk size and how many branches.
As branches go, lowest one is thickest.
[ unless you are using the Japanese style of thin low branches to make the trunk look thicker.
On our side the proportion is more like - first branch 3/4 thickness of the trunk, second 1/2 and so on.
It's how you observe nature ]

[3] Normally some sort of drawing to help the memory along.

[4] Ground growing in a colander is the fastest way to a thick trunk, and a tree planted on a tile
in the colander will encourage the eagle's claw effect of your surface roots - if once again your
tree has surface roots or you are following a style.

Allow the lowest branch to extend 3 / 6 / 12 feet, more if needed. Then go to the second branch and so on.
Observe.

[5] At least 10 to 20 of the same type to observe effects and hopefully written notes / images.

Not very difficult to do and expect results in 3 to 5 years [ or 8 ] but mature qualities [ such as bark may take up to
10 years to develop. ]
We grow most of our trees from seed, seedling and cuttings.
Climate is too mild and rich to encourage Bonsai type qualities.

Here is an example --------- just pretend it is any one of your trees to be.
Best of growing,
Good Day
Anthony

This is a seed and 6 years or so later , it .is in a bonsai pot [ not shown ]
10 years for the flaking bark effect to take place.
The air pot made the roots super efficient and the leaves are smaller than normal.

Excellent info! Thank you. I love that you take notes. I use a logbook as well. It's a requirement when working with more than a few different plants, if for anything, just to track feeding requirements. I also love that you use an air pot. You've spent time thinking about roots. You are my kind of grower!

Personally, I find air pots take up too much room for the amount of soil they hold and use fabric containers instead. But yeah, the difference is night and day, isn't it? I only use the typical style containers if it's under 1 gallon of soil.

You know you have to wait for that for a few years / a decade right?

Nice avatar!

Indeed, but I haven't crossed 40 just yet. I might have just enough time left to grow something nice by the time I check out.
Thanks!

 

[music~maker]

Bonsai from seed sounds like it's easy to do. It's not! When you grow young stock, you want to develop low branches, taper, short internodes...

But how do you do that? If you're a beginner, you won't know how! By the time you learn enough to know how, the seedlings have outgrown the stage where you could have set them on a good course. Meanwhile, the seedlings you have spent years growing a pretty much useless!

The best way to learn bonsai is to start with a larger plant, and cut back. Then let it grow out again. Once you learn how the plant responds, then you'll have an idea of how to grow from seed.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I always encourage the most determined folks to give it a try, but it's a far more productive endeavor once you already know what you're doing. Better to start with established material first, and learn how to keep it alive and do bonsai techniques on it. I've often seen "10 years" thrown around as the amount of bonsai experience one should have before attempting to grow from seed. Not sure if that much is needed or not, but it's a lot closer to the truth than 1-2 years.

 

[Victorim]

Got some Zelkova seeds just about done strating in the fridge.. Once they have grown a little, thinking of doing a forest planting with most of them. Could be some nice results even with young trees.

 

[milehigh_7]

@Occams Hacksaw The best info that I know of on TE is here http://www.bonsaihunk.us/info/TexasEbony.html Jerry is an expert and one of the nicest most helpful people I have ever met.

 

[sorce]

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Mine too!

In the form of Vomit!

Seriously. ...

Short killing them....which is also educational....
Even the biggest "screw up"(which honestly,I can't figure) you at least have something....

Even if it is a straight taperless trunk with shit roots....

You can still layer it and chop it back for movement....

Which you can not do with air, or....

A note to wait 10 years!

We don't even wait that long to have children!

And you can't just kill those!

I imagine if everyone waited till they knew everything about raising a child to have one....
Earth's human population would soon reach zero!

It's not called Conprogate!

It's Propagate!

Hey....is that why they call it Contraceptive?

Sorce

 

[Anthony]

Straight trunk - seriously ??? - cut and turn trunk sideways and re-adjust the roots. That's why you use
a seedling.
Or just use some wire.

What is so difficult ?

Experimenting is the nature of Bonsai. This is also why you take images and written notes [ so you can learn from, and
avoid previous mistakes. ]
Good Day
Anthony

 

[sorce]

What is so difficult ?

Amen!

You can study everything between now and when the seedlings sprout!

And at least have the book knowledge!

Sorce

 

[Anthony]

@sorce,

you know down here we have an old schoolboy's tactic, where you play dumb or ask dumb questions,
say something is not so, to get someone to give you the answer.

So say ---------- a seedling with a straight trunk, too difficult to make an informal, and some bobo says
this is how to do.

Or deciduous trees need shallow broad containers, and we have several such shapes in colanders.
Plus having watched K dig up a seagrape in such a container, with a much larger trunk from
a year of trough/ground growing.
The seagrape down here is deciduous.

Just about to help add on the third colander to the Caribbean Pine, just to see what it does.

Experimentation / Research ------------------ how to learn.
10 years --------- ha ----------- what's that to a Bonsaist / Penjingist.
In Bonsai time has no meaning ................................
Good Day
Anthony

 

[music~maker]

Mine too!

In the form of Vomit!

Seriously. ...

Short killing them....which is also educational....
Even the biggest "screw up"(which honestly,I can't figure) you at least have something....

Even if it is a straight taperless trunk with shit roots....

You can still layer it and chop it back for movement....

Which you can not do with air, or....

A note to wait 10 years!

We don't even wait that long to have children!

And you can't just kill those!

I imagine if everyone waited till they knew everything about raising a child to have one....
Earth's human population would soon reach zero!

It's not called Conprogate!

It's Propagate!

Hey....is that why they call it Contraceptive?

Sorce

I moderate the /r/bonsai forum on reddit, and we have almost 40k subscribers. We get people there constantly showing up who are misinformed about how bonsai grow and think that everyone grows their trees from seed. A lot of time they show up with those silly seed kits where you're supposed to grow the tree in an actual bonsai pot. So I'll admit my first reaction now is "don't do it!"

But I'm an experimenter myself, and I always tell the most determined people to give it a try if they want to, and I even link them to resources that will help them do it correctly. But the simple fact is that you learn a lot more about bonsai from working with established material, and you're mostly going to just thrash and focus on the wrong things if you try to do it primarily from seed. Call me crazy, but I believe that for the vast majority of people, seeds are probably at best a rat hole. I too went through my seed phase too at one point. I learned a lot about seeds, and almost nothing about bonsai.

Now, if a serious student comes along, and wants to grow from seed in addition to working with material at lots of other different stages, or just really wants to do it in spite of the caveats, well, there's nothing wrong with that at all. I work with seedlings all the time, but anecdotally I can tell you I get a lot more out of the experience now than I did when I was still figuring everything out. And the figuring out definitely didn't happen from growing seedlings.

This isn't dogma, though, just advice for efficiency of learning. Ultimately, people can do whatever they want, but my experience has been that people learn bonsai a lot more quickly by focusing early efforts on established material first.

 

[sorce]

So I'll admit my first reaction now is "don't do it!"

I knew there was more.

Always pegged you for an open mindeder!

Sorce

 

[Anthony]

@music~maker ,

here is another way to look at it,

It takes 3 to 5 years to learn to water a plant correctly ------ Horticulture
and that is, if one is sincere/serious about doing Bonsai / Penjing.
Otherwise it could be longer.

Seeds are much more expendable and at times on our side we beg for the life
of the older plants. Newbees kill mostly and it is hard to watch a 20 to 50 year old
die. [ due to watering, placement in sun or other, repotting, barerooting when repotting,
over pruning,poor soil mix .........]

Seeds although ending up dead, many times, well ................

Additionally after Horticulture the Art part will require classes / training of the eye, head and heart.
That takes much longer.

Bonsai has no practical use, so as it is said -------- It is the plaything of Rich Folk -------- who often use
a trained gardener.

"we grow our trees for beauty, not produce or lumber "

Historically, the Chinese Scholars used trees as a way to stimulate ideas for ink paintings / poetry and
writing books or other.
Reading done back in the late 70's / early 80's showed that they were not ornaments, as they are used
today.
This is how my brother-in-law uses them, he is a traditionally trained oil painter.

Plus most of our trees are from seed or seedlings or cuttings, because our climate is too mild to produce
the typical Shimpaku look.
Drawings are also used to guide the hand.
A drawn image negates the unknown and speeds up the training process immensely.

Lastly, ground growing of a seed on a tile in a colander gives 3" trunks in a little as 1 to 3 years, and we
also grow celtis [ with the use of a fridge for winter ]
We normally use under 18" trees due to the weight factor and getting older.

Asking in China [ through our relatives - Brother in law and I are Chinese mixes ] they use the same
techniques in the open fields.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[sorce]

I love it when the coin flips peacefully!

Sorce