Suiseki care and other information please

GrimLore

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Is there a "preferred" method to clean collected material?
What is acceptable as far as polishing is concerned?
I saw Oils on some site for sale saying it was for Suiseki and wondered what people do in general...

Thanks

Grimmy
 

dick benbow

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LOL, like all things japanese, instruction varies by who's teaching the instruction.

I think as a whole, non asians seem to gravitate toward the hard and fast rules (no variances).

A stone should be kept outdoors with the bonsai and have it watered daily and exposed to the weather. You can bring them in and dry them off on occassion and use the oil from your hand
and face ( the nose is good) to give it a light sheen.

What I find is that some stones do loose color if kept inside year after year. The rocks left outside seem to retain what caught your eye in the first place.

Several of our club members use a boot wax from the UK to preserve color and add a sheen to it saying they can easily remove it with hot water, justifying the practice as not injuring the stone. Others more strict use camellia oil on both stones and bonsai pots when it comes time for show.

Some say never cut a stone or change it, but even famous stones from hundreds of years ago were worked on, dispite how subtle.

So I think you have to try and learn all you can from others on what they believe and then find something your comfortable with.

Many of our members take pride in announcing a stone that can be cut in two to make a "two-fer".

Once home from the collection site they are scrubbed well with soap suds and water prior to making a daiza.

If you want to believe in something to follow that is well done with advice get the book Willie Benz wrote called Suiseki. Covers all your questions really well and then some. Around twenty bucks for soft bound edition.
 

GrimLore

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Thanks so much for the info and the reference! I often wondered how many "displayed" Suiseki were not natural among other things. I will get the book and for now clean some up and see what needs "tweaking" Some of the smoother stuff should polish well but I will hold off until I do the read.

Grimmy
 

Cadillactaste

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LOL, like all things japanese, instruction varies by who's teaching the instruction.

I think as a whole, non asians seem to gravitate toward the hard and fast rules (no variances).

A stone should be kept outdoors with the bonsai and have it watered daily and exposed to the weather. You can bring them in and dry them off on occassion and use the oil from your hand
and face ( the nose is good) to give it a light sheen.

What I find is that some stones do loose color if kept inside year after year. The rocks left outside seem to retain what caught your eye in the first place.

Several of our club members use a boot wax from the UK to preserve color and add a sheen to it saying they can easily remove it with hot water, justifying the practice as not injuring the stone. Others more strict use camellia oil on both stones and bonsai pots when it comes time for show.

Some say never cut a stone or change it, but even famous stones from hundreds of years ago were worked on, dispite how subtle.

So I think you have to try and learn all you can from others on what they believe and then find something your comfortable with.

Many of our members take pride in announcing a stone that can be cut in two to make a "two-fer".

Once home from the collection site they are scrubbed well with soap suds and water prior to making a daiza.

If you want to believe in something to follow that is well done with advice get the book Willie Benz wrote called Suiseki. Covers all your questions really well and then some. Around twenty bucks for soft bound edition.
Thank you...ordered the book from this posts suggestion.
 

xseki

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LOL, like all things japanese, instruction varies by who's teaching the instruction.

I think as a whole, non asians seem to gravitate toward the hard and fast rules (no variances).

A stone should be kept outdoors with the bonsai and have it watered daily and exposed to the weather. You can bring them in and dry them off on occassion and use the oil from your hand
and face ( the nose is good) to give it a light sheen.

What I find is that some stones do loose color if kept inside year after year. The rocks left outside seem to retain what caught your eye in the first place.

Several of our club members use a boot wax from the UK to preserve color and add a sheen to it saying they can easily remove it with hot water, justifying the practice as not injuring the stone. Others more strict use camellia oil on both stones and bonsai pots when it comes time for show.

Some say never cut a stone or change it, but even famous stones from hundreds of years ago were worked on, dispite how subtle.

So I think you have to try and learn all you can from others on what they believe and then find something your comfortable with.

Many of our members take pride in announcing a stone that can be cut in two to make a "two-fer".

Once home from the collection site they are scrubbed well with soap suds and water prior to making a daiza.

If you want to believe in something to follow that is well done with advice get the book Willie Benz wrote called Suiseki. Covers all your questions really well and then some. Around twenty bucks for soft bound edition.
If "oil from hand and face" is acceptable, then better to use vaseline, mineral oil, baby oil. It is ok for your own stone to use human body oil. But think about it, you buy stone, it was cared with somebody's body oil, not yours, your feeling?
 

bonsaichile

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If "oil from hand and face" is acceptable, then better to use vaseline, mineral oil, baby oil. It is ok for your own stone to use human body oil. But think about it, you buy stone, it was cared with somebody's body oil, not yours, your feeling?
Under that logic, you should be repulsed to touch money, door knobs, and any other commonly touched surfaces... or even other people!
 

Paradox

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If "oil from hand and face" is acceptable, then better to use vaseline, mineral oil, baby oil. It is ok for your own stone to use human body oil. But think about it, you buy stone, it was cared with somebody's body oil, not yours, your feeling?
The person you are quoting hasn't been seen on the forum since 2016. So you're probably not going to get an answer.
 

xseki

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Under that logic, you should be repulsed to touch money, door knobs, and any other commonly touched surfaces... or even other people!
No serious, just a feeling. Enjoy it if you like this way.
 

Bonsai Nut

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No serious, just a feeling. Enjoy it if you like this way.
It can be viewed as a negative, or a positive thing. It is similar to when people buy antique furniture that shows centuries of use, and why many companies try to replicate the look, but fail. The worst thing you can do to an antique is try to clean it or refinish it. People are interested in antiques because of the age that is on the antique. They don't want a "clean" antique that has been scrubbed to remove aging.

On occasion, I build custom wood furniture. For the furniture I build, all finish sanding is done by hand... down to 1000 grit. Then I hand rub an oil finish into the wood... over hours. There isn't a machine or mechanical process that can replicate it - like finishing fine musical instruments. If I bought an antique beer stein (as I have been known to do) I would not be offended by the idea that someone might have used the stein 100 years ago to toast their friends. I would welcome it!
 

xseki

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It can be viewed as a negative, or a positive thing. It is similar to when people buy antique furniture that shows centuries of use, and why many companies try to replicate the look, but fail. The worst thing you can do to an antique is try to clean it or refinish it. People are interested in antiques because of the age that is on the antique. They don't want a "clean" antique that has been scrubbed to remove aging.

On occasion, I build custom wood furniture. For the furniture I build, all finish sanding is done by hand... down to 1000 grit. Then I hand rub an oil finish into the wood... over hours. There isn't a machine or mechanical process that can replicate it - like finishing fine musical instruments. If I bought an antique beer stein (as I have been known to do) I would not be offended by the idea that someone might have used the stein 100 years ago to toast their friends. I would welcome it!
Hi bro, I think you misunderstand. “Patina" is good for any vintage items. The key is how did it generate. The natural way or normal using are no problem. Rubbing by hand on suiseki, the purpose is getting "Patina" by using "human body oil". I would like to choose natural oil. Your hand working is great, it doesn't mean you want trade your project with "oil" from your hand, right?
 

TinyArt

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I'm not surprised by the "human oil" method, or the mixed feelings about it -- a jeweler once told me that the oil from the creases beside the nose is the best and finest to "feed" shell cameos "but you can't let the customers see you do it!"
 

Boulder Bear

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Hi bro, I think you misunderstand. “Patina" is good for any vintage items. The key is how did it generate. The natural way or normal using are no problem. Rubbing by hand on suiseki, the purpose is getting "Patina" by using "human body oil". I would like to choose natural oil. Your hand working is great, it doesn't mean you want trade your project with "oil" from your hand, right?
What’s CRAZIER is there are MANY who believe ANYthing beyond cleaning and oiling is NOT Suiseki!! “NO rubbing”, “NO buffing”!

I can understand if a person was trying to buff in a design or feature not already existing, but IF buffing/polishing IS allowed, what is the issue with buffing qualities already existing on the stone so they are clearer for the eye to pick up?…like shining a light on a chair in a shadowed corner…I fail to see the problem with shining the light, while MANY suggest “no light should be used. The scene is as the scene is” what’s more, the microbes will CONSTANTLY be re-inventing the scene if left to their own devices.
And FINALLY, why on EARTH is it considered an artform if only collecting and cleaning!? I don’t see how a keen eye makes one an artist.
Spotlighting a natural, inherit beauty to share with others, THAT I think is at least closer, while still falling short of the definition of “artist” by miles.
In collecting, we’re not “creating” anything; hence, if not allowed ANY form of manipulation, by definition there are NO Suiseki “artists” the couldn’t exist and the statement of defunked the moment it leaves our lips.
WEIRD effing “artform”
 

bonsaichile

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What’s CRAZIER is there are MANY who believe ANYthing beyond cleaning and oiling is NOT Suiseki!! “NO rubbing”, “NO buffing”!

I can understand if a person was trying to buff in a design or feature not already existing, but IF buffing/polishing IS allowed, what is the issue with buffing qualities already existing on the stone so they are clearer for the eye to pick up?…like shining a light on a chair in a shadowed corner…I fail to see the problem with shining the light, while MANY suggest “no light should be used. The scene is as the scene is” what’s more, the microbes will CONSTANTLY be re-inventing the scene if left to their own devices.
And FINALLY, why on EARTH is it considered an artform if only collecting and cleaning!? I don’t see how a keen eye makes one an artist.
Spotlighting a natural, inherit beauty to share with others, THAT I think is at least closer, while still falling short of the definition of “artist” by miles.
In collecting, we’re not “creating” anything; hence, if not allowed ANY form of manipulation, by definition there are NO Suiseki “artists” the couldn’t exist and the statement of defunked the moment it leaves our lips.
WEIRD effing “artform”
It is an art form in the zen sense of the term, as it relates to the individual search for enlightenment
 

rockm

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Suiseki, Gongshi, Scholar's Rocks, are prized because they evoke natural landscapes or other objects, creatures etc. The most valuable do that because they do it by themselves for the most part. The more altered they are, the less 'natural' they become and resultingly, the less regarded. It's easier to pick up a stone, make alterations and enhancements than it is to find a stone that "speaks for itself" without additional work. Anyone who has looked for suiseki in nature knows those kinds of stones are pretty rare.

That said, many excellent suiseki have been altered in some form. It's just been done expertly and the work on the best stones is not obvious.
 

Boulder Bear

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Suiseki, Gongshi, Scholar's Rocks, are prized because they evoke natural landscapes or other objects, creatures etc. The most valuable do that because they do it by themselves for the most part. The more altered they are, the less 'natural' they become and resultingly, the less regarded. It's easier to pick up a stone, make alterations and enhancements than it is to find a stone that "speaks for itself" without additional work. Anyone who has looked for suiseki in nature knows those kinds of stones are pretty rare.

That said, many excellent suiseki have been altered in some form. It's just been done expertly and the work on the best stones is not obvious.
Mark! 1st off, if YOU should know someone associated with S/F (NM?) Bonsai, PLEASE tell them that you KNOW I can be a dolt regularly, and to give a crack at my 2nd reply (as no doubt my 1st may take a few months of meditation to erase from memory it was so abysmal!)…also, GOOD to see u as well as your weigh-in!
 

Boulder Bear

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Suiseki, Gongshi, Scholar's Rocks, are prized because they evoke natural landscapes or other objects, creatures etc. The most valuable do that because they do it by themselves for the most part. The more altered they are, the less 'natural' they become and resultingly, the less regarded. It's easier to pick up a stone, make alterations and enhancements than it is to find a stone that "speaks for itself" without additional work. Anyone who has looked for suiseki in nature knows those kinds of stones are pretty rare.

That said, many excellent suiseki have been altered in some form. It's just been done expertly and the work on the best stones is not obvious.
What has been difficult for me recently to digest Has been the result of reading from many different sources on the web that it was copacetic to buff Suiseki stone regularly if not “daily“…only to find out recently that having done so now lumps in a couple truly rare and remarkable finds Into the same category of stones as those that Have actually Had their form altered by mechanical means, or grinding!! “Worked Stone0, Never mind, the fact that in each case, the stone has a natural base and has not been cut or ground in anyway! That left a mark (ha ha, No pun intended😂))… Paraphrasing, “art form” being used to describe the process of enlightenment is in itself, a rather artistic stretch of the term A coincidence I also find entertaining with an irony that is not lost on me
 

Boulder Bear

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Suiseki, Gongshi, Scholar's Rocks, are prized because they evoke natural landscapes or other objects, creatures etc. The most valuable do that because they do it by themselves for the most part. The more altered they are, the less 'natural' they become and resultingly, the less regarded. It's easier to pick up a stone, make alterations and enhancements than it is to find a stone that "speaks for itself" without additional work. Anyone who has looked for suiseki in nature knows those kinds of stones are pretty rare.

That said, many excellent suiseki have been altered in some form. It's just been done expertly and the work on the best stones is not obvious.
I wish I cld offer the link. Rather all I can offer is to say “the information out there on the Internet, and can be found”.
If I’m not mistaken, Japanese society is Renown for using indirect communication. That said, I think Suiseki Itself has only been around since the 1930s though though I’m doubly it’s a derivative of an art form that goes back over 2000 years. At one point in the history of Suiseki, You get the impression that there was too much rigidity in “the rules” to the point, where it greatly detracted away from the enjoyment of the art form. It was undecided, that, for the betterment of the art, to attract more people, to be a little less rigid with “the rules“. Enter The philosophy of cut stones, or “any cut that improves. The quality of the stone is permissible” (I paraphrase, but that’s the gist of it).

Somewhere between biseki, Which is a highly manipulated near-perfectionist stone artform, and “NO manipulations of ANY kind!” (i.e. rubbing, buffing, WATERING for the affect of altering a stone’s appearance), seems to lay the intended target of the Culmination, of views, that gave birth to modern, suiseki.

After all, #1 MOST important!!! It SHOULD be enjoyable! I think it’s nearly impossible to have deep appreciation (in most cases) “Enjoyment” is not also present!

For instance: I LOVE this stone!! I Often wondered to myself how rare of a find it is to come across a metamorphic rock that would, by complete happenstance, be shaped in the fashion of a sea turtle carapace (or a python’s head, Depending on your view).

I have not “altered” the Shape of the stone in anyway! To that end it’s pure! Having read On Bonsai Empire that was permissible to wire wheel, I found what I believed was dirt in the cracks of the stone, to be quite stubborn and removing and wire wheel to it. (Turns out I thought was “dirt“, Is rather a stone related to mold!!!… But that’s besides the point).

Point is: , Through my ignorance, somehow the rarity of this find is devalued. I had used a wire wheel and hand, buffed the stone based on ignorance and erroneous information from what I thought was a reliable source!

Now, technically, though it’s totally Copacetic by Japanese standards, but by American standards, it is now lumped into the same grouping of stones that have been manipulated and shaped by grinding discs: “Worked On”.
Values the stone greatly. Not just because it’s mine, but truly because I do appreciate the rarity of the find it doesn’t do the stone justice, and it most certainly detracts from my enjoyment of the art form!!
Especially since the wire wheel cleaning was an attempt to remove an organism that ultimately is harmful to the stone!!
I’m certain this is precisely why, Japanese allow for Certain degree of “manipulations”.

Same can he said for the Jaguars Left side profile, found pointing left on the left side of the Stone. I did not “buff” The jaguar into the stone!!
I did not grind or the jaguar to the stone!! All I did Use wire wheel in attempt to remove the same destructive mold, related microbe, And ignorantly buff the stone. Now it also is lumped into the “worked on category”, TOTALLY denying the absolute rarity of finding a Jasper with this 100% natural pattern and shape already existing in it!

Has nothing to do with my pride I’m just the duly who stumbled across the stone! But the “worked on” view is at best insulting to the spirit of the stone! It lowers its rightfully vaulted status, and labels it in a most undeserving fashion. Beyond the insult, such a statement is dishonest for the reality of this stones existence.

Personally, I don’t care to have anything to do with an art form that is that strict! BTW, the “second stone” isn’t a result of Effervescence, but rather Microbial growth! Which is more rare: a view built of cultivating common microbials, or a natural pattern, Present since the creation of the stone, where Natural happenstance, through various forms of erosion would create truly one of a kind view?
Maybe it’s time for us westerners to put a little more appreciation, in our statted “stone appreciation” hobby. Whether Softening of “rules” or a more standardized nomenclature. Cause As for the effect on the stone, either of these “worked on” stones are EVERY bit as rare a find, as a stone that’s ALSO been vigorously cleaned, oiled, and ESPECIALLY watered or even placed outside for the intent of enhancement! Probably rarer cause they’d BOTH exist nearly as amazingly w/o such enhancements as regular watering or even oiling. If I’d known, I wld hv just left them be, and allow the microbes to do what they will for my lifetime…I’d be near equally agitated if they belong to someone else! Clearly there’s some work to be done to our guidelines on how we literally view stones
 

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