summer air layering practice?

Maros

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I would have separated this, at the moment I see the first root tip pushing the plastic. The aftercare is what makes it then. It has rooted. So protect it for a bit so the roots can grow out. This layer is well and beyond the doubt-to-separate-stage in my view.

When taking those pictures I called my wife to show her my success. First time with maples, felt happy you know...
And she said with a cold face "You haven't separated it yet so ???"
She is in no way knowledgeable about stuff I do in my garden though.
How I hate it when she is right about my stuff....:)
 

leatherback

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Usually the main cause of failure is separating too early
interesting. I always separate as soon as I notice that rooting has started and have not had them fail on me because on that. I did have failures because the motherplant was not strong, the layer site dried out. And because of woodlouse using the site as their home, and probably feeding off the callus
 

Saddler

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So according to your experience, what is the good time for separation from the mother tree, in moderate climate? Pictures of my two layers on my maple from the weekend.


View attachment 199480
View attachment 199479
I would wait another couple of weeks. Do you plan on cutting it back? This year I am cutting the excess growth off and letting new shoots grow before (after I see roots) I take the air layer off the mother. So far it seems to be working as intended. My reasoning is that I can use the mother tree's vigour to put out new growth that the new roots will easily be able to support rather then having to use the energy reserves to build the new growth, hopefully putting the airlayer ahead overall.

I hope this makes sense. I am very hung over and proof reading is proving difficult. Lol, I didn’t even try to be honest.
 

Paulpash

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interesting. I always separate as soon as I notice that rooting has started and have not had them fail on me because on that. I did have failures because the motherplant was not strong, the layer site dried out. And because of woodlouse using the site as their home, and probably feeding off the callus

It just makes sense, to me at least, to get the most robust root system you can so that it establishes quickly post separation. One particularly hot or windy day could mean it dehydrates. I've even separated root systems from their parent trees in late October just before the first frosts start & they have been fine.
 

BrianBay9

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You need to separate soon enough so that the separated tree's roots can get established before the first hard freeze in your area. I tried for at least six weeks before the predicted first freeze. If you can't separate the layer by then it's probably best to leave it unseparated over the winter.
 

Saddler

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When you receive responses from members in different growing conditions try to put that in perspective. It is always best to consult with experienced Bonsai people in your own area as well. For example i am in zone 8b quite different from zone 6 in many ways. Some of my friends across the water on the "dark side" experience very different seasons even though they are a short distance away. Elevation, location exposure etc. It affects the timing of many Bonsai practices.
Location is a key factor. I have meant to say this in each of my posts in this thread but I get sidetrac.... SQUIRREL!

Where was I? Location? Yea, I live on the dark side I just learned. Mileage may vary because of location. I always try to cut when there is 10-14 days of cool weather predicted if possible.
 

Paulpash

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Here's a few done last season - I've layered stuff every year for God knows how long :) IMG_20180220_155832_DRO.jpgIMG_20180220_155802_DRO.jpgIMG_20180220_155819_DRO.jpg
 

Saddler

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You need to separate soon enough so that the separated tree's roots can get established before the first hard freeze in your area. I tried for at least six weeks before the predicted first freeze. If you can't separate the layer by then it's probably best to leave it unseparated over the winter.
Do you though? I have no doubt it’s good practice to do what you suggest. I have taken airlayers off the tree after the leaves have fallen, dumped into a pot and watch it freeze (lightly protected with the house) only to have it grow very well come spring. Letting it grow an absurd amount of roots on the mother tree probably helped.
 

Paulpash

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You need to separate soon enough so that the separated tree's roots can get established before the first hard freeze in your area. I tried for at least six weeks before the predicted first freeze. If you can't separate the layer by then it's probably best to leave it unseparated over the winter.
If you think about it the amount of starch in the roots as a result of the layer is more than enough to provide hardiness. The tree knows when to begin hardening off even air layered roots. I had 4 trees I separated in late October / early November & had an early freeze of - 5C. They leafed out as normal in March with no ill effects.
 

Saddler

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Here's a few done last season - I've layered stuff every year for God knows how long :)View attachment 199509View attachment 199510View attachment 199511
It’s like an addiction. I was just thinking that I have barely done any layers this year. Just three Japanese maples. Oh yea and four flowering cherries. I guess also did two crab apples. And three sugar maples. HA, I completely forgot about the twenty five sugar maples I airlayered for my cousin last year. Add those to my four dozen airlayers. Only 21 survived though. They need a lot of foliage to push roots learned.
 

Paulpash

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It’s like an addiction. I was just thinking that I have barely done any layers this year. Just three Japanese maples. Oh yea and four flowering cherries. I guess also did two crab apples. And three sugar maples. HA, I completely forgot about the twenty five sugar maples I airlayered for my cousin last year. Add those to my four dozen airlayers. Only 21 survived though. They need a lot of foliage to push roots learned.
I hear ya - my garden is really too full now but it is addictive, you're right. Fastest way to getting quality raw stock to play with there is...
 

amatbrewer

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Hi Amatbrewer,
If I might step in here and add my thoughts. So firstly I agree with all the above, and separation too early for me too has been an issue.
For your variety, I have heard that Shishigashira is realatively easy to root, and as the internodes are short I think this helps a lot too. If the caliper of your air-layer is less than 1/2 inch say, then you will probably find it difficult to air-layer it correctly, eg. Too much heartwood removed which can lead too weakened branch etc.
Also most of us would prefer an air-layer because you get a faster girth tree, but as your variety roots easily(ish) from cutting also, it might be good practice too.
Charles

Edit- red leaf maples are more difficult to root, and dissectums even more so. Good luck and let us know how you get on.

That is useful information. Much appreciated!
 

Dav4

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Here's a link to a thread I made 2 summers ago about a late season layer attempt on a Japanese maple. I'm in usda zone 7b GA... but I'm much further south then most posting here and I suspect that is an important consideration. Still, I think a healthy maple can easily have a layer initiated now in WA and be ready to separated by Labor Day.
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/air-layer-in-late-summer.24510/
 

BrianBay9

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Do you though? I have no doubt it’s good practice to do what you suggest. I have taken airlayers off the tree after the leaves have fallen, dumped into a pot and watch it freeze (lightly protected with the house) only to have it grow very well come spring. Letting it grow an absurd amount of roots on the mother tree probably helped.

OK, "need to" is too strong. "Best if you can" is probably more what I mean.
 

Mike Hennigan

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If the layer doesn’t seem to have as many roots as you want come the frosts in the fall, just leave it on the tree for the winter and separate it the following summer after the new growth has hardened off. You’ll probably have a more vigourous layer this way anyways since it is still getting support from the mother tree in the spring. Unless of course you layered low and the mother roots die that winter.
 

Johnathan

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#1 I love this forum search feature...

#2, I love that you guys have all went through this process and can save me headaches. I'm going to start some layers in the next week or so on Maple, Ficus, and probable a juniper as well. I was skeptical mainly for the Maples and Junipers, but The last couple from post @Mike Hennigan and @Dav4 pretty much sum it all up! Thank you everyone. Great thread!

EDIT: Having done my very first layer earlier this year and fighting with the chopped up moss ball and the nightmare that is..... I'm intrigued by something @Saddler mentioned using soil.... Would DE suffice? Maybe DE and moss together to make sure it doesn't dry out? Thoughts?
 

River's Edge

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#1 I love this forum search feature...

#2, I love that you guys have all went through this process and can save me headaches. I'm going to start some layers in the next week or so on Maple, Ficus, and probable a juniper as well. I was skeptical mainly for the Maples and Junipers, but The last couple from post @Mike Hennigan and @Dav4 pretty much sum it all up! Thank you everyone. Great thread!

EDIT: Having done my very first layer earlier this year and fighting with the chopped up moss ball and the nightmare that is..... I'm intrigued by something @Saddler mentioned using soil.... Would DE suffice? Maybe DE and moss together to make sure it doesn't dry out? Thoughts?
My thought would be to give it a try. See how well it works for you! Given the limited time that an airlayer takes, there should not be an issue with the structure. My only concern would be limited air space if too much moisture is retained. As long as it is loose packed then that should not be a problem. Let us know how it works.
 

Saddler

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#1 I love this forum search feature...

#2, I love that you guys have all went through this process and can save me headaches. I'm going to start some layers in the next week or so on Maple, Ficus, and probable a juniper as well. I was skeptical mainly for the Maples and Junipers, but The last couple from post @Mike Hennigan and @Dav4 pretty much sum it all up! Thank you everyone. Great thread!

EDIT: Having done my very first layer earlier this year and fighting with the chopped up moss ball and the nightmare that is..... I'm intrigued by something @Saddler mentioned using soil.... Would DE suffice? Maybe DE and moss together to make sure it doesn't dry out? Thoughts?
If you can water it every day with the rest of your trees, regular bonsai soil mix should work. I use something along the lines of 40% DE, 40% pumice and and 20% sea soil (an organic soil made with seaweed and mulch and stuff. Very rich soil) for all my trees at the moment.

I use the bottom half of my black nursery pots as my air layer pots, TIP: use screen in the drain holes. This year I forgot it on a couple DOH! I had to thread wire through the holes, what a PITA. This year I am going to leave the bottom of the pot attached to the layer and cut off the pot wall 99% from the bottom and then when I have it in its new grow box, gently cut the last 1% and fill it up leaving the roots undistrubed while having something the roots can grow horizontal on from the get go.
 
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